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International 10 75: Like interesting

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International 10 75: public interest journalism lab which promotes discussion of social issues. She is a foreign news correspondent was a foreign news correspondent and reported from over 50 countries. She's written for family affairs, Washington Post, Guardian, Foreign Affairs, the Atlantic, and the New York Times. Among other outlets.

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International 10 75: she's the author of several documentaries and books, including the Lost Island Tales from Occupied Crimea and the Maidan Tafir, as well as co-author of a book of the Reckoning project which I hear more about. But

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International 10 75: she earlier on, was co-founder and head of independent Ukrainian Bromatska, TV and Promatski International.

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International 10 75: And she's using multiple awards for work. So, Natalia, just to give you the setup. Natalia is going to talk for about 20 employees minutes and she will show a video. I should warn you that the

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International 10 75: content at the video is upsetting. So we weren't there upsetting images. And then I'll start the discussion and we'll open up the questions from the audience. There's also an audience watching via zoom.

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International 10 75: So, Natalia, thank you so much for coming

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International 10 75: package.

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International 10 75: Thank you so much. I hope that will be useful. So I'll

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International 10 75: might learn. Not alert so much

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International 10 75: to give it on time. So within this time I probably would like also, obviously, to explain what's what's going in in Ukraine. I permanently living here. That's where I'm permanently based and excessively travel around the country, and where I spent most of the time.

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International 10 75: But in this opportunity to speak to you I want to deal about the issue of how we deal with more or less reinventing the human rights journalism, but also how we speak about the accountability and

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International 10 75: as well.

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International 10 75: in generally. How I also report this work as a war against democracy, and that would be the points, and I'll later would answer the questions.

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International 10 75: So I'm journalist and author and for quite a long time we were. I've been reporting foreign conflicts, but since 2014 the Russian invasion, Ukrainian particularly being focused on the issues of the occupation and right here and the relevant issue. But I clearly understood with our team that there is some prices in the human

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International 10 75: journalism that it's not relevant for a lot of people, and a lot of people do not care much about that. And we feel a bit frustrated about that. But when the full scale invasion started and the

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International 10 75: challenge was so immense, what we were doing, we were thinking how to make sense of what we are doing, you know, not just reporting.

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International 10 75: It's true that the journalists are anyways like first responders. They're very, very often on the scene. The first, however, I think for us all, we feel that it's not always enough just to report, and it doesn't mean that we need to, you know, sacrifice the rules of the profession. The idea was to think what else we can do, how we can report in a way that it can be more useful, even more useful.

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International 10 75: So we had a A number of the people who joined together. A huge part was in our team. In the public interest. Journalism left Ukrainian based Angoa, which was dealing with journalism, and we gathered a number

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International 10 75: numbers of the filmmakers, journalists based in in Kiev, who were very experienced, I would say, like one of the best in the country, but also number of the regional reporters, and together with quite

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International 10 75: American. Also, you know, I hear the side journalists like Janindi Giovanni, who is an American reporter, covered a lot of worse, and the quite a close colleague of of us with whom we work earlier, Peter Pomeranza. We found this

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International 10 75: reckoning project it also included the analyst and the lawyers who are of the Syrian origins. And the idea was that we would record the testimonies of the War crime survivors. We will use that for articles for films. What we are doing, and we believe that and then also the the very same testimonies

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International 10 75: would be analyzed by lawyers, and that would be the submissions to international bodies, but also there would be use of the legal purpose, the legal purpose of those testimonies.

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International 10 75: And later.

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International 10 75: after some time and honestly, it's already now everything we have collected can be used for memorials, for for preserving the memory, because another crime of this war is denial for the victim to to be named a victim with this war on truth, which we're also living.

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International 10 75: So within this period of time we collected by now almost 400 testimize, we speak just to the direct survivors of direct witnesses or survivors. So not just the people who are

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International 10 75: living through tragedies, but somebody everybody to whom we talk with

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International 10 75: can potentially testify in court. We speak to them in very neutral way, and each testimony is recorded

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International 10 75: and written in the format which could be used by the prosecutors so we pass them to the Ukrainian prosecutors as well. It took some time to develop this cooperation. We don't have any, you know, like control over how it would be used. Of course, with the consent of the people, we also try to meet the people who are not really covered by the national law enforcement, and especially now with occupation. We know

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International 10 75: that some people would be more at least willing to speak to the journalists first.

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International 10 75: So and again like. By now we created over 10 of the documentaries, which were some of them one international festival somewhere published by number of the magazines like Time Magazine and a lot of others, and we publish the book based on the what I would say, which I believe it's a historic document of the first year of the full scale invitation.

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International 10 75: But also we. We speak to the people in in a way that won't dramatize them. So we really like also very cautious about how to speak to those people. Currently, the Ukrainian State official Ukrainian prosecutor office has registered over 130,000

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International 10 75: alleged war crimes. That's really enormous number

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International 10 75: and I'll speak more on that. But to give you just a glimpse of what we are doing. There would be this video. Indeed, it's a bit gross. It's definitely not the worst version of what we are working with. But that would be the feeling of what type of people we speaking and what is kind of the work we are doing

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International 10 75: you

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International 10 75: the Papua New Guinea?

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International 10 75: The wife was prime

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International 10 75: bottle.

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International 10 75: Someone will be shutting.

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International 10 75: What's it?

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International 10 75: Sprouts? Yeah. Baku.

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International 10 75: the

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International 10 75: Switzerland

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International 10 75: nebula. Yeah.

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International 10 75: In the ticket.

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International 10 75: Joshua, confiscate

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International 10 75: because of rubbish.

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International 10 75: Be light.

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International 10 75: Hello!

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International 10 75: Where is jihad?

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International 10 75: Vitriol dignity was a holistic holy.

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International 10 75: his life

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International 10 75: so much

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International 10 75: watching the Iranian.

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International 10 75: But he said, if you want

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International 10 75: Morris Royal

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International 10 75: Stolen Creek. Yeah, from a heating

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International 10 75: fourth ghost.

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International 10 75: Precious Mana

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International 10 75: Nismo

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International 10 75: Javier Wallace publishes

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International 10 75: navigate

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International 10 75: Brazil.

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International 10 75: showing you for a show.

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International 10 75: A short

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International 10 75: Google will probably

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International 10 75: forget the barrage, though

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International 10 75: of color zebra.

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International 10 75: it is diverse.

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International 10 75: prostate, and musek.

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International 10 75: Anibaly is beaten

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International 10 75: at the State Mosina mode

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International 10 75: Mushima

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International 10 75: at the protest

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International 10 75: how about studio?

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International 10 75: Little

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International 10 75: but the beloved

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International 10 75: Giveajka Katura?

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International 10 75: But Alice was like

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International 10 75: doesn't work.

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International 10 75: was pesty, but

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International 10 75: young Smoke Polar Ridge

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International 10 75: more Jihelson.

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International 10 75: but killing

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International 10 75: Junction at a deal of Mercale.

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International 10 75: just a little.

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International 10 75: What is very important for us as a team and the people who working on the ground that in particularly, of course, it's obviously there's a very difficult con content. And it's a very hard to work with the people. But

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International 10 75: what is our approach is? We are speaking that all the things which are happening permanently currently in Ukraine. They are not like just tragedies, because this gives you the feeling that you can do nothing while we really thinking, treating these crimes these events is happening as a crimes which has a different connotation. If it's a crime, it means that

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International 10 75: that should be investigation, and that should be somebody accountable, and it gives a sense of purpose both for survivors, both for everybody who works. But I also, we also believe, for for the future.

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International 10 75: for stopping this impunity you've seen in this video the lady one who was in she was testifying about the attack on the train station in front. Unfortunately, her husband died, and when I was I was talking to her for the interview, and she happens to be

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International 10 75: a very religious person. She was a sheath evangelical. She went to volunteer at that train station. Why this tragedy happened, and I asked like for what reason she's speaking because she doesn't believe in the reckoning as such. She believes that would happen in heaven, and she clearly said that. Yes, I don't ask for the punishment, but for me it's very clear that if such things happen to me and my

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International 10 75: life is destroyed, those people should be stopped, and that's why we need to do that as with usual crimes. When we started to work. 2, 2 and a half years ago with a lot of international lawyers. They made us very cautious that it's very hard to prove the crimes. That's not easy, especially if we speak about the war crimes. Yet after those 2 years we can really speak about the patterns, and really the

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International 10 75: things which you understand. It's not a misconduct. It's not something, coincidence. So just among our survivors. We have hundreds, people who were detained and tortured under the occupation and in different period of time. Early stage of the war, in March 2022 in Bucha in summer, in her son region, later in a different region in the north, in the East, in different detention centres.

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International 10 75: the people were tortured and treated in a very similar way. They were electrocuted in a very similar way. So you clearly see that the patterns when we speak, for instance, the shelling. A lot of people think that the shelling is just collateral damage of the work. But, for instance, in the case, when you look at the object which attacked you clearly see that the train station is attacked to stop

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International 10 75: the location. One of the strategy is not really occupy the towns, but if you can't occupy the town to destroy it and to make people leave. So, for instance, attacking the hospitals is a part of that, because people won't stay in the they might stay in the town, where there is no bakery, where there is no market, but they won't stay in the place like Marple when there is no maternity ward

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International 10 75: and the hospital, and we, for instance, while talking to the lawyers, know that. Yes, there is something like responsibility of the occupier, and nobody expected. Occupier, really, you know, defends the people, but there are some minimum things that occupy should provide medicine. But in our case we see that medicine is taken from the hospitals, from the people. So actually, the

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International 10 75: is a war against the population. It's not a war against the military, or, for instance, we see such things like the use of the

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International 10 75: environment as the tool of the war, using the nuclear power station as the nuclear shield. That was a case with the Chernobyl nuclear power station, which was occupied for one month. This is a case now for the Parisian nuclear power station, the biggest in Europe which is actually like literally occupied. And unfortunately, part of this occupation is legit legitimized. And we see that, like

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International 10 75: a lot of international charters, for instance, like international atomic agency has not even a practice to document the fact that the employees of this station are tortured. It's just not in their mandate. They ignore that fact, just because that's how the rules are written. So I think for us, it's all the part of the bigger, bigger story on how we can

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International 10 75: fix actually international system. Justice, which which we believe is is is broken. As and as I say recently also did that thing that in April, April this year. We've also filed a criminal complaint on the crime of torches in to the Federal port of Argentina, because this particular, by the man who survived torches in one of the occupied Ukrainian territories.

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International 10 75: The idea behind this

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International 10 75: action was also to first of all, this country has this in their constitution. The tradition and the practice to investigate such horrible crimes wherever they happen, universal jurisdiction. But for us it was extremely important to show that these crimes are not just European. We needed to have the trusted

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International 10 75: legal system as an Argentinian, due to their tradition of the trials against Hunter, which would look at this crime. And at these things, you know, as something which goes beyond the the job politics. And that's something which also I'm trying to do a lot with the with the journalism we we do, and with what we're doing to move the human rights

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International 10 75: views and keep out of the geopolitical contest, because we strongly believe this is not an opinion of which views you. You have it somehow should be also automatic.

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International 10 75: So

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International 10 75: I think that I can later elaborate more

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International 10 75: on the legal part.

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International 10 75: more or less on a lot of things. You know, like in in details, to explain what's going on, what's going on with investigations. But there is

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International 10 75: but there is something else I want to say. In general, there is a very common question. Why.

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International 10 75: why, Ukraine? And you know, especially on the 30, on the on 30 of the war, and you believe in the idea of some kind of

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International 10 75: empathy, fatigue, or just general fatigue, because, you know there is a will to walk out and say like, why you don't give up, why, you don't do things. I generally always explaining that for somebody who is living in the under the war as Ukraine, or under the risk of the occupation. It's not the choice.

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International 10 75: It's a privilege to walk away and not to think and to be tired of something. But I usually compare these like, if you are sick, the advice to stop treatment is actually irresponsible. The only way you need to fight the disease can be very unpleasant, but you need to do that.

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International 10 75: So for us.

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International 10 75: We strongly believe that in this particular case. Of course, the very special thing about Ukraine is that a lot of these crimes commit are committed by the nuclear power which has a right of wheat in the UN Security Council, and that's also something to discuss and to deal with that

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International 10 75: but also I've been as a foreign reporter covering a lot of wars. And I think that a lot of ideas were that like people didn't know. You know they didn't, because they didn't know. Then you understand that people do not act

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International 10 75: because maybe they don't know what to do or we can't do anything about that. You know. The Syria, unfortunately, is in such a disarray. Little can be done. What is interesting with Ukraine a lot can be done, so it's not an issue that we do not act, or we

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International 10 75: don't want to act to do something, because we don't know or we cannot. It's a very clear idea that it's actually a conscious decision not to act, which probably at this stage of the war, makes Ukrainians pretty conserved. What I mean by that.

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International 10 75: I'm Ca, coming from human rights. Of course we needed all, you know, to rethink the idea of security and idea of the defense and the use of the military force, which is not really something close to to my heart.

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International 10 75: But in the end you clearly understand that you know, air defense system is something who protects people's lives. As Ukrainian President said, it would be enough to have over 25 better defense systems to cover Ukraine from the to use them as a shield to cover them from the air strikes because it's not like air strikes not happening. They're happening all the time.

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International 10 75: But we understood that even the ballistic missiles of supersonic weapon can be stopped. It didn't happen earlier. That weapon didn't hadn't been used ever in this sophisticated weapon in the real life. But since last May. It's used constantly, and most of those rockets where Ukraine was able to shell to stop exactly the same case. Now, I just lost

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International 10 75: Thursday last Thursday. I've been to harkev a Ukrainian city on the Russian border some miles away, where a million people believe it is a really big city to Ukrainian standard, where there is life going on, but unfortunately it lacks air defence. So we really constantly hear about human losses. But we understand that there is something to prevent this war the same I'm speaking about

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International 10 75: so. When the rather I I also used to work in the

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International 10 75: You know, this aspect of so-called reconciliation. This building, especially prior to 2022 and a lot of people saying that like, if Ukrainians are calling for accountability, you know, it doesn't work, walk work well together with the idea of like an agreement.

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International 10 75: I'm generally saying that Ukrainians are now demanding justice and accountability in a lot of international venues.

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International 10 75: With a clear understanding that, we know that out of 130,000 alleged war crimes and there are more most won't be ever investigated. International Criminal port currently opened to arrest. There were 4 arrest warrants, but 2 incidents that could be maybe 5, maybe 10 within the course of the work. Maybe there would be a few doses of the universal jurisdictions

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International 10 75: trials and things like that. It's really, you know, beyond capacity of any single country to investigate that thing. But at least

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International 10 75: what we believe the accountability is the only civilized way to

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International 10 75: canalize. You know the revenge, and Ukrainian Ukrainian as a society, believe that it's not really our way. That should be the civilized way to to put stop on that. And as I refer to the lady in in the video, you know, to prevent from further to prevent further crimes happening. So in this regard, I think Ukrainians has already made.

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International 10 75: Somehow they

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International 10 75: part of the compromise and concession, knowing that, like we would agree, the partial accountability, but at least some kind of accountability should be there.

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International 10 75: I also want to. I'm finishing, and I would be probably more into the

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International 10 75: questions and answers but there is something else to say in, particularly in in I in the way we work, you know, as you saw in in in the videos, we

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International 10 75: we document a very, very, you know, clear neutral commentaries of the people. We really want to try to build a narrative, and I had a chance to to screen these documentaries in quite a few countries which are where the audience are far away, like Mexico in Argentina, where there are different political views on the conflict. But the power of the human story is is very strong. I never had a case of when people you know didn't believe.

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International 10 75: but at the same time, therefore, I'm very cautious and narratives of the war. I really think that that is a point at the same time being here. I strongly also think that. Yes, indeed, there is this war against the democracy? And what I also think that

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International 10 75: what does?

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International 10 75: What do authoritarians do? They try to create the feeling that we can do nothing.

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International 10 75: They partially succeeded

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International 10 75: with with Russia, where society doesn't understand that they can do anything yet. In Ukraine people think that they everybody think that not everybody, but like a lot of people, think that

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International 10 75: we can do something. And this choice, this personal choice, this personal empowerment. To be a citizen is something Ukrainian have. It's our strength. Is our weakness, the weakness. Why, I would explain the weakness. One of the big stories I did one of the biggest and essays I wrote was what is going on under the occupation

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International 10 75: and under the Russian occupation.

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International 10 75: And what? What is also interesting, that before 2022 before the full scale invasion. We had part of the countries being annexed and occupied, and there were persecutions against indigenous population, like premieres, Muslim minority in Crimea, or different, like political actors, journalists, activities, people of that type of background.

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International 10 75: What happens now is that under the attack is almost every everybody who is not welcoming Russian occupation.

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International 10 75: which means more or less literally, everybody. One of the stories of the basement is one of the towns which is occupied in the very first day of the work in the British region we we recorded the testimonies from one particular prison. There was a farmer, there was a teacher, there was a policeman. There was a student, and there was all type of the people.

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International 10 75: I'm not really into the idea that, you know, like there is something like DNA or freedom in any particular population, but I think that there is a tradition of the education and the tradition of the civil education. So since 1991,

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International 10 75: wherever you say, with a lot of problems, Ukraine developed some kind of problematic. But democracy, especially after 2,014, it's it's a democratic state. However, there were different moments, and which, when I'm speaking about my generation, which is in their forties, thirties, including the generation which is currently in power.

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International 10 75: You just drop this idea that you choose. You choose your president, you choose your local authorities, you choose your village head, you choose how you leave. There is nobody who would say you how you should do. And you are like you are. You speak the language you speak, and it's not something unusual. That's why it's very tricky when you really currently see the occupation in the villages

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International 10 75: that there would be the foreign soldiers coming, and they

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International 10 75: cannot believe that the people do not follow some orders, and that's why, you know, in one of the regions, when one of the regions after the first year of the war we had 49 sub regions, so a 47 heads of those regions, local authorities, where is abducted, or detained, or tortured, or needed to be exiled.

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International 10 75: which is speaking like 47 out 49. And you really, when we talk to these people, this is very simple people. They just really do not understand why somebody who came to their land just tell them how they should live.

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International 10 75: which is more or less saying that the whole population is under the threat. So that's why I'm saying that like it's really the the weakness, somehow, not weakness, but the part of the Ukrainian tragedy that people just couldn't comprehend this occupation. They couldn't accept that.

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International 10 75: But at the same time I I I would strongly insist that that's exactly why Ukraine is, you know, getting strong and not giving up because there is a really strong citizen, you know. Stay.

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International 10 75: s sense of empowerment by so many people which is not like brought from top down, which is just there and we just cannot be, you know, like stopped on the because some funded in one of the Foreign Affairs magazines would write something how he wants Ukrainians to be. That's why I I really think that it's it's indeed a very, very important. You know, war for the world.

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International 10 75: And I also think that it's it's it's it's it's it's it's really the the the place where we see not just the we see the future, because, as I would say, at this stage of the war, Ukrainians are not optimistic, but

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International 10 75: we are hopeful, and the big difference is that when you hope you do everything you can do.

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International 10 75: and you you hope for the best, otherwise you can't pursue. I'll be ready to speak more and answer any kind of questions but with that there were my like introduction notes on what we are doing, but with some also major ideas in mind. Thank you.

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International 10 75: That's my sixth.

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International 10 75: You're up, please.

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International 10 75: So thank you so much, Natalia.

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International 10 75: very enlightening.

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International 10 75: let me start. 1 one thing that I noticed in video was that most of the people were speaking Russian like Ukrainian, and I wondered about that is that because the interviewers were speaking Russian, or was it pure geography? So of course.

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International 10 75: the the war is very physical thing. The the tanks are going where it's closes so obviously in, particularly like we're speaking about the barrio.

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International 10 75: You know it. Just the territories which are closer to the Russian border and the regions which are closer to the Russian border. You know where? Attacked first, and there the the people suffered the most. So it's that would be. Probably the reason is, is there any sort of estimate of how many, what percent

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International 10 75: proportion of the victims the civilian victims in Ukraine or Russian speaking rather than Ukraine, because it's so at odds with one of the rationals Putin for invading that he was going to protect Ukraine. A lot of population is perfectly bilingual because of the tradition, and it's easy to explain it in this audience, and I think in the

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International 10 75: faculty and the group that, of course, the Russian language was always the language of an empire of the capital. So if you want to have a good job if you live in the village, but you move to the city. You should convert to speaking Russian because it's more prestigious. That was a tradition, and of course we have, especially in the industrial towns. Quite a few people who would

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International 10 75: would speak Russian. But numerous sociological researches showed that you know the language people are speaking doesn't influence their political views and afflicts. That's why it was never an issue for Ukraine to count, and it's almost impossible also to count particular way. Who are the Russian speakers in Ukrainian speakers there would be people who are perfectly Russian speakers, but they would speak to them while they're in Ukrainian and Russian.

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International 10 75: So, and I also, by the way, would say that now we're thinking a lot.

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International 10 75: The approach.

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International 10 75: I think, that there is a level of the responsibility

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International 10 75: of a lot of people, including in the West, you know, who tried for so many years in kind of insert this

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International 10 75: linear like division, based on the language which

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International 10 75: in in the end worked in in, I think, prior to 2014 there would be. There won't be any for an article where there won't be, you know, like this Russian speaking, and Ukrainian speaking team man

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International 10 75: so in this regard, I think that that should be also some rethinking on how these labels were. Rather, you know, helpful to, to, to understand, unhelpful to understand in the country right? And and if there are a way to present that picture to citizens, Russia. It it seems that that maybe would be

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International 10 75: line of argument or a point that would really challenge Putin's

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International 10 75: version of the water in which

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International 10 75: the it's basically an ethnic war between these people who who speak this strange language. You don't realize that they're really Russians. Against the ones who.

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International 10 75: I guess the true Russians

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International 10 75: that kind of national was hardest to sustain. If people realize that the tens of thousands of civilians being

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International 10 75: being killed are Russian speakers, I'm I'm I'm cautious about use of it at all, like all kind of ethnic ethnic conference is important in this week.

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International 10 75: in a way not really ethnic. But Ukrainian as a political political force. Yes, we have the deliberate attack on the Ukrainian language. So, for instance, you've seen one of the in the clip on the words is horrible situation case. When 370 people were kept in the basement for months

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International 10 75: Complicated story. But what was interesting, that when we were speaking to one of the survivors, he told that because we were in the basement, so it was very humiliating.

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International 10 75: Conditions, for instance, like they couldn't use a toilet properly, but then, when they ask.

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International 10 75: you know, like to provide any paper toilet paper, but the only, and it was a basement of the school. So it was a book of Ukrainian literature, the Ukrainian language books which we given for them to use as a toilet paper, which you know you seem like. It's it's not a choice. At the same time, while my recording you know I I should say that I think Ukrainians for a long time also underestimated how

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International 10 75: multi-sessing the country is. You know I reported a lot not just on premieres, Ukrainian, Jews, Ukraine and Ukrainian and Armenians kind of working together in the same place, because that's how the country is. Romas, Bulgarians Greeks wherever Russians, and

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International 10 75: so so so for them, you know, Ukrainian is kind of a civil. It's a it's a way of life. It's a particularly, you know, political, also choice, and also in terms of the language. What I what I understood that especially for those minorities, you know, like especially now. Obviously, the the minorities were speaking the language of the Empire, not the unpopular kind of like

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International 10 75: language. The wheelage, as as as as as as as the government tried to portray it for many centuries, for for many years, but but now, with this war that they would, we would prefer to to to speak Ukrainian, not a very perfect one, because of their political choice, to show that that's what this war is is for them. So I I don't really think that at this stage there is something which can just easily, you know, like move the

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International 10 75: that part of the Russian side which is under the Russian propaganda. But I just wanted also to explain the kind of more a different like aspect of of of this war rather than looking. It's through the, you know, like glance of ethnicity.

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International 10 75: Okay, so you you said that the international justice system is broken and that needs to be fixed. And I remembered we had a British lawyer called Alexander Horizonti. I don't know if you work with you guys. He was doing exactly this sort of work in Ukraine. He he's over here late 2022, speaking at the Law School, and at that time he was a very

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International 10 75: disappointed, let's say, in the efforts of the International Criminal Court, for instance, you mentioned 2 cases, maybe 4 obviously totally, not on the scale that's needed for

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International 10 75: given the same problem.

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International 10 75: And the conclusion that he come to by that point late 2022. Is that really the Ukrainian prosecutors were the ones that could handle this and that they were starting to handle it. But they needed more resources. They needed

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International 10 75: trained forensic specialists. They needed people to do the sort of work that I think you're doing

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International 10 75: so can you tell us a little bit about that, how it, how it worked, how, how it's developed with the Ukrainian prosecutors, and also what you would hope to see

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International 10 75: in terms of fixing the International Criminal Justice system. Can the International Criminal Court do more? Yeah. So, trying to be brief, you know.

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International 10 75: Can you imagine? Like, I'm looking at this, you know Hill, for instance, and I imagine that somewhere, you know, I know it's pretty fancy area. It could be a different area of play. There is some local procedure

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International 10 75: there. There is a local procedure that prosecutors hundreds of them in in the country, thousands each of them probably is like usually dealing with issues like crimes. Other things theft

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International 10 75: all of sudden in the very same thing. This particular person need to do with international humanitarian law, which is something very specific. It's usually like very few people globally who teach you.

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International 10 75: So you know, when we talk to the Ukrainian prosecutors. They say that, like in their schools in the best university, it's not like everybody Todd taught that it's a different way how to how you investigate these crimes. And now you really, you know, like you were a local prosecutor, you you were dealing with a village theft or something or crimes. Maybe some criminal gang. Sometimes Ukraine actually has a very low crime rate. And then you need to do with this kind of atrocity. It's also happening a very often

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International 10 75: your community

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International 10 75: to your people. You know you under the Shelley. What is very interesting for me to see that they are very determined

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International 10 75: because and they have such a strange argument. It's it's really like very painful to listen to this argument, because you, everybody says, like the justice is slow, but they say we don't have time by yet. That means that they don't know if they survive, they say, like, you know, like, wave the bone fallen. I'll do as much as I can till till I'm here.

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International 10 75: There is a system. There is an international support. There are people advising, and it's very good. I think, at this stage that the most of the cases would be investigated by the net Ukraine and prosecutors. The problem is that of course, most of the perpetrators.

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International 10 75: They are the foreigners on the farm land. So a lot of these cases would be maybe judge in absentia, which is not really like the best way, however, still naming those people. It's better than not

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International 10 75: going to the International Criminal Court.

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International 10 75: Yes, it's not a lot. However.

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International 10 75: the story on the deportation of the children.

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International 10 75: For instance, you know

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International 10 75: it was opened like a year after invention. It's rather fast, and I I'm really

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International 10 75: quite sure that you know, for that it was very important for prevention. You saw also these kids in the first video. Actually, this family was one of the first who we we've our team found. And they were one of the first to explain this type of the phenomenon which was one of the first group of people, you know, desecrated.

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International 10 75: and the separation of the equinent children is still there. But I think, with at least with this icc warrant it's not that

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International 10 75: of

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International 10 75: blood is not that you know a brazen as well. For instance, the second arrest warrant by Icc. Against the head of the whom I had already now of the Russian Lexi fleet and the man who is in charge of the Air Force. I think it's also very important, and if my police

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International 10 75: covered foreign conflicts. They are thinking about like

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International 10 75: accountability for the former. Christ, they would say, like Russians, has been, this government regime hasn't been stopped in, has been stopped in Syria, in Georgia. Let stop them in Ukraine. For me it's rather than

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International 10 75: who knows.

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International 10 75: Let's make this, you know, world smaller for those people. Yes, the Russian military are not

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International 10 75: I. I don't believe that, like they are not allowed by their own regime to go to Paris or Beer Ritz, or wherever. But you know, if they have kids, if they have anybody, I don't think that anybody wants to have a father or grandfather who is charged with crimes against humanity. And also, you know what we were doing in Argentina as well, you know, like Argentina has not even like visa regime with Russia, you know if they even don't ask if somebody comes

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International 10 75: who knows, you know, if the opportunity of the possible arrest warrant, which is to give a sign that some places are closed for these people. So, for instance, like the Us, are not definitely more close for the for the for the Russians, who had a lot of money here prior to all the complications and all the all, all the things, because they like like to be here. They like to buy things.

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International 10 75: So I really think it's it's at least something and

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International 10 75: it's still far from

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International 10 75: necessary. But that's what. But I still think that it's worth it to try. It's also give empowers and survivors.

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International 10 75: It's extremely, extremely important for them.

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International 10 75: and I had very strange experience speaking in Mexico.

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International 10 75: where we have, when I've been talking to the the workshop with people documenting crimes against women, and they were giving a number of 130,100,

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International 10 75: 33,000 of the

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International 10 75: subpoenaed.

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International 10 75: and I was with puzzle like, how can I? What message I'm saying? I'm saying that we have 130 other electrical crimes. What does it mean for these people? You know they have so much in in so much there. Do I want

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International 10 75: them to feel empathy? Do. I want to understand how sad situation is, you know, in Copenhagen people would be shocked. Maybe here they would be shocked. But this up, but not in Mexico in May, but when we talk to them it was very important to have this feedback, as one of the Mexican colleague told me that, like look, we are not at war, and we agreed not to investigate this crime, not to pursue and be partially given up.

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International 10 75: What you are doing, giving us some inspiration that, despite you have award which is definitely like something you can't stop you still trying to pursue and not normalize this wire. So I for me it's extremely important. And to say again what what? I'm also very strongly saying, that you know

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International 10 75: it shouldn't be the issue of the

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International 10 75: should be politicized. And that's a big problem today, as I usually saying that like, if you have a car accident.

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International 10 75: then this is committed by somebody you know. Well, by friend by your family member.

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International 10 75: You like that person, and he probably didn't mean it. But you would never say, Don't package that person because the crime has been committed. It shouldn't be the case for the war crimes. It shouldn't be the case for the International Criminal

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International 10 75: and fixing the International Criminal justice system. Do do you think that the international jurisdiction prosecutions can be scaled up? So you get some from Argent, Spain, for instance. There is no such crime as the you know, like

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International 10 75: using the environment as a tool of war, as a war crime in the Rome statute. I'm not a lawyer, I have to knew.

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International 10 75: Learn more within my last needs. But still but that could be the jurisdiction which can, you know, in in, in, in their legislation? Consider the, you know, like use of the nuclear power station as a shield as something. So the route, the our Syrian lawyer and our legal director, is Olavi, who is Syrian lawyer.

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International 10 75: His main portfolio is the investigating. All crimes commit can connect to the use of the chemical weapon by by Bashar Assad.

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International 10 75: and they, for instance, like lobbying for the creation of the particular tribunal on

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International 10 75: chemical weapon, you know, like something. We should be there. So I think that if we don't.

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International 10 75: some don't have something. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do that. That's why I was really puzzled. I worked on this story about occupation of the the region of the power plant. I think by every common sense thing, that if there is a international atomic agency monitoring mission in the Parisian, it cannot be totally that they ignore the fact. As I mentioned earlier, the the employees are tortured. But no, it's not in their mandate. So you really think something should be there.

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International 10 75: and why we have Cynthia Pohi, whom some of you know, the Ukrainian historian who wrote the brilliant brutal should not. But he's will will issue the new book in October with some parts to systemize. He also insisting that you know the occupation of the nuclear power station is treated more or less. Similarly.

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International 10 75: if you would occupy the petrol station gas station, and it shouldn't be, you know, like so so the point that there are some some things which were lacking, but

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International 10 75: learning more and more about also past experience. And I'm speaking about prison experience, Argentine and any other. You understand that a lot of things were created. It's not like they were like given always. You've always adding something in the end. Icc was also created after the you know, some of the trials.

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International 10 75: Okay? So I I have lots more questions. But I'm gonna open it up. And

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International 10 75: so who who would like to ask a question? If, first of all, one thing is, is that just a comment judging by our experiences, what happened in Yugoslavia?

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International 10 75: After these love wars and war crimes there, one could be optimistic, because, many of the worst war criminals were brought to justice. It took a while, but they were brought to justice. And I think in that sense

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International 10 75: there, there is a a reason for optimism here. Usually it seems to me that war crimes tend to be a kind of crime that I don't know. I don't think there is a statute of limitations on them. These are things that people

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International 10 75: are dedicated their entire lives to tracking down and punishing perpetrate. So I think that there's a good historical record for that. But questions I have is calls. First of all, you were talking about. Oh.

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International 10 75: I Mohamed did describe a culture, let's say a culture of some sort of civic democracy, or whatever you want to call it mum Ukrainians, who were, as you were describing, saying that they were surprised.

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International 10 75: Why would people come here and take our land? Why would people do this to us, and so forth. However, it seems to me that, and you know what, why should I do what they tell me to do? Right? I think that's where you're saying more or less.

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International 10 75: It seems to me that the behavior of people in

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International 10 75: the dumb fax, the occupied blood box is a bit different than the regions that you have described and that you have been. Am I correct about that or not? Because it does seem to me that the population there seems to be at least what the population that's left seems to be much more client, much more willing to remain under the

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International 10 75: ridiculous occupation, but

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International 10 75: criminal applications actually, but still no, I think that there was a different way of the way. How the Territories were occupied.

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International 10 75: So, indeed, in particularly in Crimea and in in the donbas, especially slowly prosecuting the

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International 10 75: some people who are politically active, or, you know, like at least you can identify who potentially could be the ones, you know, like, you can be very unlucky. But in generally there was a way, there was a way to be

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International 10 75: the territory for quite a long time.

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International 10 75: There was a way to stay. There was a way to kind of pursue some of the life. Well, for instance, even you speak like the intranation of the children, you know. It was slow

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International 10 75: and we also did the research. So, for instance, if for the first years you gradually change the school books, text books in the schools, you, you know, like you, you, you remove everything you pray, and you teach that what we see now is like a pure militarization, and you know the level of the violence the level of you know pro. But but what I want to also say today

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International 10 75: where we should look. And we put in context the post occupation of Frankie and the Don bus.

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International 10 75: It was a flap. It was a, you know, testing ground, not just not testing ground.

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International 10 75: the the development of the system. So, for instance, the indochnation of the children and the system on how you, you know, organize this camps where you bring

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International 10 75: kids. Creation of such organization like you you are, you know, I saw in Delta in 2019, those kind of tiny kids who were like militarized. But all this infrastructure was later used for for for the further deportation of the children, all those people. And now, what was very interesting, I had a chance to talk to one of the survivors

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International 10 75: who recently occupied territories of the Malaysia region.

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International 10 75: and he was explaining me, you know, like in new things we should be, which is not really exactly what you say. Like detention and tortures. All is still there. But you know, like, how. What are the limitation for the people? If they didn't take the Russian passport?

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International 10 75: It's not about like forcing people to take the Russian passport. It's you know it's not. It can be legal, disputed. Is it like

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International 10 75: legal or legal? You can get? But there are a lot of discrimination if you didn't have. So, for instance, you you cannot have go for the hospital. You can't have the cute military Medical Health medical aid. If you, for instance, didn't accept the Ukrainian passport, you cannot work, you cannot do, and in that you can be kicked out from your own city or village, but when this person.

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International 10 75: in a way we speak, we never lead the questions people should tell us, you know, like what's happened. We just ask very open questions, according to or methodology.

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International 10 75: but I was

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International 10 75: just really shocked because I knew the next step.

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International 10 75: mainly because for for years I was reporting the occupation of Premier, and now we knew how these rules were imposed like half year. Then every new regulation wasn't used for us, were reported specially like, oh, there was this discrimination, this new policy. So I remember those policies very well, and then now I know, like

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International 10 75: they are all set up. Now you just use everything which was done there for many years like like that as a tool. So I really think that was the. It is the goals of of the Kremlin change and the ways. How they do be changed! And that's you know, it's not like disturbing. It's like the fact, but I think that there is no yet full

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International 10 75: acceptance and assessment of the differences. And then 1 one more question, do you have

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International 10 75: It's names of people very high up, like the the commander of Lexi fleet. You know the the woman in charge of the the deportation of children, so forth. Have you been making lists of much lower personnel down to the soldier level? And collecting names? No, in our way, the part of the testimonies and questionnaire is what we know about the

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International 10 75: survivors, about the tracers. And there was also like the challenge. But this also makes it very interesting to work

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International 10 75: after some years. So, for instance, we were all very, let's say, disappointed, because, especially during the first year, a lot of our journalists and researchers were like, oh, they don't wear insignia. They are all in black lavas, they are faceless. You can't identify them. However, you still can sometimes. Which is very important. Sometimes you can identify some of them, but that is also the reason why, then the analyst would say, Look, but what is.

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International 10 75: if you really look at the number. Even with our humble amount of the people.

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International 10 75: You can see the people who, you can see that there is a systematic

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International 10 75: way, how Russia hides the identity of their soldiers, which means that there is this culture of impunity in courage

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International 10 75: by the fact, because what is a way, reasonable crime? It's when you don't investigate the crime of your soldier, and when you encourage it. So if you make all of them, you know, faceless and unrecognizable you can be, you know, accused of the fact that you create the culture

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International 10 75: in which

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International 10 75: any of the mislead Miss Misconduct of your soldiers won't be

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International 10 75: which won't be prosecuted. So you really need like them to go high up and saying like, who took this decision. So I really think that that there is a importance for the people to to look at the low level.

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International 10 75: But in this particular way we can really speak about the system of the system system.

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International 10 75: Right? They give medals to them, too. Let's not forget. Right? I well, one more question have you been cooperating? I assume you have. But I just want to know with Bellingcat for. But we they're doing some other things.

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International 10 75: Okay, there's one question from

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International 10 75: from the Zoom audience

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International 10 75: and it asks has an open, incredible referendum been held in Wukong, Us. To determine what percentage of the population supports politician political integration with the Russian Federation.

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International 10 75: You mean the one in more. May

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International 10 75: 2014. Well, the question is, has there been any credible? I I've been at this kind of sham referendum way. It was like more or less one room of the people doing something, and some people were in the basement which is very important, that, for instance, even prior to the

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International 10 75: at any historical moment

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International 10 75: in the Ukrainian history, according to every single poll, there was never ever a considerable majority, or even a considerable group of people in Crimea, for instance.

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International 10 75: to speak about the

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International 10 75: secession.

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International 10 75: It just was never. It's like statistically, it was never

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International 10 75: so that's that's why what is interesting that

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International 10 75: during the full scale invasion.

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International 10 75: when they there was this kind of

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International 10 75: type of the I don't know elections or something happening in the new occupied areas.

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International 10 75: and there was not even the.

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International 10 75: you know, like they even didn't play this game.

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International 10 75: So what is very interesting, I give you example, a different example, what in one of the stories we we spoken to the

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International 10 75: teachers who were

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International 10 75: under the pressure, and they were forced to

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International 10 75: to go to the school and work, because during the first months of the work the schools were closed on the occupation.

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International 10 75: But what is this kind of head of the educational department tool like

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International 10 75: Luke.

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International 10 75: You cannot.

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International 10 75: It's not like you must bring kids to the school.

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International 10 75: but bring them for one day, so we would film them

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International 10 75: for the Victory day.

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International 10 75: So the question is, and why we speak about this talking time of occupation. Then a lot of that is done for the camera for for showing to the boss elsewhere. So if at least in 2,014, there was like at least like the playing the game we play.

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International 10 75: It's like this year in the Russian elections. They even didn't try

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International 10 75: in there, they because we really were looking like, would people be forced to come for the election polls. Yes, they like so called election portals that were people with guns, but they even didn't.

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International 10 75: didn't want that to to do that to to to at this stage. Yet still, for me, it's extremely important to explain that. Still, like the you know, like, there is no any rule or legal base on

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International 10 75: breaching the sovereignty of the State.

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International 10 75: So no, no, no credible put into whatsoever right.

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International 10 75: Oh, other questions!

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International 10 75: Well, let let me ask you that about

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International 10 75: deported children, because there have been some stories there. I know there are organizations or individuals who have been working to try and rescue some of them.

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International 10 75: And all of these stories of some.

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International 10 75: I think, even by their parents, go into Russia able to locate

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International 10 75: the children and bring them home.

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International 10 75: What's going on in that. So.

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International 10 75: according to the

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International 10 75: Ukrainian Government, the rest around

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International 10 75: at least at least 19 sandwich of Ukrainian children deported.

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International 10 75: and such organization like Yale Observatory lab identify that there are way more

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International 10 75: yet. By now there were around 400 bit more than 400 kids which were taken back.

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International 10 75: In each case it's almost a special operation.

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International 10 75: and

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International 10 75: especially of the Icc. Weren't. The

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International 10 75: Russia sometimes can give the children back

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International 10 75: if the parents would travel. But after huge, you know, problematic, like dangerous labor.

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International 10 75: The point was why we like don't see this kind of hundreds of parents taking.

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International 10 75: you know, searching for their children.

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International 10 75: Most of the children that take taken are the children from the vulnerable families for care, taking facilities not exactly orphanage. Ukraine had orphanage. Some of them were educated, some when Chinese, but

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International 10 75: kind of caretaking facilities. So, for instance, parents can be

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International 10 75: I don't know. In prison they can be some somewhere. They are like a guardians who are like grandmother or or somebody. So these type of children are taken first of all, institutions where, you know, disabled children institutions, for there are, and those children are not returned. The biggest problem also is about the kids who are.

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International 10 75: you know.

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International 10 75: who are really very small, because it's impossible to identify. You know, somebody who is like would remember his name would remember the parents. Somebody

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International 10 75: like those kids are like 3 and 5. It's kind of like, very difficult. It's just like you kind of believe that they keep. They can be gone. So indeed! That would be the the pretty tragic thing, and like one story of of of the return. So you know, Ukraine welcomes all this like 5 kids, return with the facilitation of the Qatar.

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International 10 75: a big thing, but you know it's just 5. It's still 5 children. It's it's really important

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International 10 75: since yeah.

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International 10 75: you said in your travels, especially to Latin America that you're receiving a good reception when you come in person and give your presentations. So much of opinion nowadays is made online either by influencers, or sometimes people who troll what's posted so even though you are getting this good in person reception. Are you

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International 10 75: getting the trolling that's happening? And all of the other conflicts that go on in the world. So you let's say, you host? This many children have been kidnapped and relocated across the border. Do you suddenly see, like a swarm of newly opened accounts that just go like you are just lying? Why are you lying? You know. Nothing like that ever happened. And then they put

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International 10 75: the proof, you know. Prove it again. Prove it again. Prove it again. Yeah, I think about this parallel world existing Twitter. In particular, I give a different example. I'm not really particularly active in Twitter, really due to not numerous reasons. But we had a different experience. Within the last year, also, within one of the projects we brought to Ukraine a number of the sales thing.

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International 10 75: senior editors funded famous super famous journalists

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International 10 75: from all over the world, from Asia, from Africa, from Latin America. What was very interesting, the ones who were kind of Twitter celebrities, the ones who would have like 5 million followers in Twitter in Mexico, or somebody who is like a superstar in Indonesia, like those who were particularly in Twitter.

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International 10 75: They were really, you know, like attacked with very similar things coming different times like. And you met President Zelensky. Why, you didn't mean putin as if, like, or like some other things, you know, like, for instance, our

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International 10 75: Mexican colleague, you know she's Jewish. She met the particular Ukrainian soldier who is one of the leader of the Jewish community in Nepal, and he's serving

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International 10 75: but and like, and there would be like a huge like Twitter thing that she met a Nazi which is like total total nonsense. But but anyways, it's there. And there where I mentioned that, you know, like especially, it's very important to really attack those people who are in. We have a pool, Guy, from a very popular and nice journalist from Mongolia.

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International 10 75: who just he's not an old controversial person in his country, but all of a sudden he was attacked once.

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International 10 75: Twitter. After that we sit which I think that's a part of like attempt, or to silence those people. But you know, it's still a painful experience again, like for victim, it's really painful to be

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International 10 75: denied to have the right even to be called who you are for me, you know I have enough on

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International 10 75: gardening comments, so you know, then, like now laughing. But I'll now be like telling a sad story. No, you think it doesn't touch you. But last year we had a case when one of the Ukrainian writers, Victoria Amelia, has been killed under the attack in Kamatosk, and it was like a day. Few days after she was moderating a panel I invited to her, and I wrote a piece.

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International 10 75: and it was very you know, I wrote a piece for the Guardian, and also, you know, there there was.

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International 10 75: I was like writing that

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International 10 75: one of the Russian generals and the head of the Defense Committee on the Russian Duma, you know, he on record, he on record literally was celebrating that attack, saying, like my military heart is rejoicing when I see the rubble of those pizzeria and head off. To those who, you know initiated that strike literally.

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International 10 75: and I knew that person, and I write about a lot of people who died yet, you know, like

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International 10 75: all this kind of comments on Twitter, where you say like, are you stupid. Don't you understand that? The you know.

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International 10 75: they would bring the Kuvate war, you know, like this issue with the babies which I was studying in the university, you know, like very famous one. But you just saying like.

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International 10 75: you know, I oh, they're like no! Why is so stupid? Why do you believe in that. And I'm saying, look like in this regard. My friend has been killed, you know, like I know it's fact. But you know you you understand. It's nonsense, you know, but I I think it's still, you know.

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International 10 75: quite a painful experience for a lot of people which I I understand. It's very difficult

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International 10 75: with the survivors.

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International 10 75: So

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International 10 75: you said 130,000 alleged war crimes.

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International 10 75: Yeah, how many cases have the Ukrainian prosecutors actually open? There are? No, this is the cases. If you speak about the prosecution around 500, about 500 of the prosecuted, and most of these are with in absence. Here we have a different also thing that no, we have the prisoners exchange.

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International 10 75: That's also the thing that you know. Like Ukrainian Russia has a lot of Ukrainian soldiers as their prisoner support.

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International 10 75: So you know, if if there is a chance, Ukraine has a Russian prison of war, they would give it back.

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International 10 75: Receive the Ukrainian soldier back

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International 10 75: I see. So most of most of the

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International 10 75: the Russian soldiers you don't have. So yes, most don't have. But those you have. You still give them back, so you would try them. You would sentence them, and then I would exchange them. I see. Okay. So 500 successful, prosecuted person already found guilty? Or.

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International 10 75: yeah, yeah, yes. And you know the different things that could be somebody who is guilty, somebody who is probably had a different like role. So it's not like all of them. Yeah. Okay. So if we're thinking about how that scales

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International 10 75: do you think the patient's going to pick up.

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International 10 75: What do you think? Basically.

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International 10 75: you know, there'll be a few 1,000 prosecutions

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International 10 75: total over the next.

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International 10 75: Yes, they won't be. They won't be, you know all. They won't be all

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International 10 75: pump.

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International 10 75: so I guess it

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International 10 75: gets at the question of how you combine these 2 roles

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International 10 75: of journalist and somebody who was working with and through the the judicial system. If if you're realistic about the judicial system, not really being able to handle it.

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International 10 75: can the journalistic part?

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International 10 75: Yes, I think what is very interesting in in in the beginning of our end, David. You know I am running the team in Ukraine, and a lot of journalists, and I strongly believe in profession. You know they are like disappointed that they write stories, and nothing happened, that they hope

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International 10 75: the prosecution that would be something new. But I also met the lawyers, who are very disappointed, saying that if journalists are not in the court, if they are not telling the story. The story. The trial won't happen. The case won't be opened, and there is also their frustration. If the story is not told.

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International 10 75: most probably there won't be the trial. So I think the idea is about this. You know combination and supporting each other

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International 10 75: with not breaching the rules of the professions, because I haven't asked lawyers to do something which they are not usually do in the way I work, because there was like at some moment in very early stages, we couldn't really understand what to feed the activity. I'm just saying that, like today, we're doing a better journalism. Because in usual journalism I asked the question. But here I'm asking questions even more neutral. I need like

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International 10 75: more verification. I really can like when we working with a back checkers. I know, like that everything I has. It's such solid. Because for my usual journalistic job, I don't need that kind of thick evidence the problem is a different one that in law.

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International 10 75: The more crimes are happening, the more similar you are. They are. There is more solid evidence, the more chances of you know, prosecuted trials, and of the success

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International 10 75: in journalism, especially international journalism. It's quite an opposite. The more crimes are happened, the more similar they are, the more people self prefer, the less it's a story.

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International 10 75: it's less unique. So our task is to find a way to challenge this, to find a way to make a film differently, to to do something else to do this, and also everything we do is of that type. But what I also understood.

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International 10 75: like also looking now a bit more in the memory and the memory. And like past trials.

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International 10 75: you just shouldn't understand this. A prosecutor's

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International 10 75: work.

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International 10 75: Usually the it's not like the most severe crime is investigated. Usually it's when there is a best evidence. People are choosing the ones which is most reachable. But there isn't more chances. And, for instance, if there would be, you know, 2 types of the accusation, you better choose one. That's how the lawyers think the one which would be

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International 10 75: more probable for the conviction. So

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International 10 75: the record of the prosecution prosecution is not exactly the the one which is historic one. So I think, for us, and the number of the I. I started to look at the Nazi trials, for instance. Yes, and there were the cases, and I was like reading a very recent like book about the latest Nazi trial in Latvia, where one of the perpetrators was accused of

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International 10 75: murdering 20,000 people. But in that particular place 33,000 Workhill. So the question is, where 30? Where the 15,000 people would happen to that? And the answer of the prosecutor was like, we didn't have evidence for that. So team. But that's why I think it's all complimentary.

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International 10 75: And therefore it's very important to, you know, like.

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International 10 75: okay, that would be this book I have. That would be the film which which remains. That would be the story. And that's why you know that just some of the cases would be, you know, prosecuted.

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International 10 75: but it still would be the, you know, a different legitimacy then, of the story, because.

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International 10 75: you know, in Ukraine it's hardly possible to deny those crimes. I think that people are kind of like know that it happens. But times

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International 10 75: changes, you know people can. The history can be challenged after some time. So for us, it's critically important in the history.

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International 10 75: But there, do you ever find there are tensions between these 2 roles when something need to be kept secret, for the court forensics and forensic investigators would say, advice team has to be can't be

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International 10 75: for the forensic people. Yes, I think we it's not like we self sensor. But of course there is a responsibility that you don't provide some things if it would that that's a challenge. But it's not really like.

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International 10 75: I I just think it's quite a responsible journalism, because you really don't want the journalism to to harm the investigation. And is there any idea that this

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International 10 75: testimony could build to a kind to to the material for a kind of truth and reconciliation

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International 10 75: commission. At some point, I mean, obviously, the wars going on. It's not. No, no, I actually think that like now again, like, especially like up to when we were working with this submission in Argentina, you know the idea was, you know, like you don't. Don't just parachute to the place. You learn the terrain. You speak to the people you speak to, the people who work in the human rights. So I really like

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International 10 75: spent quite some time all the memorials and juice commission, and talk to quite a few people there. And, for instance, I was like mad. The people who now in Mexico, still documenting those crimes, and are thinking like about something which has happened in like 1979. And you think like better, we do it today. Because I also understanding with the level of the media with media contamination. You know our survivors?

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International 10 75: you know I because what they read again, like there is this contamination of them, how they speak. You need to record. If you look at the boy the first boy in on the video, you know he was 12.

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International 10 75: And still that testimony he's given we never really speak to the kids unless their parents want. And like, we really don't want to do that. But in that regard.

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International 10 75: you know he was.

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International 10 75: it was still the most

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International 10 75: for his testing mind that he ever given. Now I saw him in January this year. He's a teenager. He's just on his iphone. He's like like, like just playing games. He doesn't want to talk. And you know it's how the memory works. So I think that there are people challenging that you need a time, but I'd rather the thing that we have this

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International 10 75: benefit of being able to do it now. It's probably was just unfortunate for users of so many stories which hasn't been recorded.

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International 10 75: I'm curious, and this is a purely hypothetical question. But I don't know. Maybe interesting. Do you think that this

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International 10 75: response to the full scale invasion would have been possible without my Don.

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International 10 75: Note.

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International 10 75: of course. No. I think that the point was

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International 10 75: that after 2,014, the response which the global response is supported? No, with the response in Ukraine.

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International 10 75: yeah. So I'm I'm really thinking that, you know.

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International 10 75: since 2,014 Ukraine, really, you know, went through the huge change. And and and and really this side and the support is on the stake that you can lose your country?

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International 10 75: No, if and there were some of the red lines done by the Ukrainian Government.

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International 10 75: So there was a huge period of the reforms, reforms of the society of the army. You know. A a total, a total political, you know. Change of the generation. Average Ukrainian politicians is between 2540 average Ukrainian Mps. 30, you know, like, you know, and the average Ukrainian ministers 35, those people with 3 by so between collapse

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International 10 75: they were not. They were kids, you know the President was well on the so thirteenth when the Soviet Union collapsed. So there is a total political shift and it also reforms, you know. Like, if you speak about the I I I really would understand. If the army has been reformed, you know you know you didn't know what would happen when I like thinking about Afghani army in in in you. You really think like, if Ukraine has been reformed.

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International 10 75: who knows if there would be full circulation in 2022 there would be such support and trust in them and the trust in the government, and trust in the authorities. But also, wouldn't they? Just, you know, like leave rather than pursuing their own interest. So I I think that that's actually these. This is the the that's why this is the stress of the Ukraine. And that's what I'm insisting is in this reforms which have done since 20 fourteenth?

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International 10 75: And we're approaching the end of time. But can can I ask about the political situation in in Ukraine? Obviously, there's this issue of

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International 10 75: of the President deciding not to hold elections during the war. So the reports that it's somewhat controversial or exaggerated. It's not controversial at all. In last

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International 10 75: autumn there was a good research by the Ukrainian.

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International 10 75: one of the Ukrainian

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International 10 75: organization which is kind of our

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International 10 75: major organization on capitability during the elections and transparency of the elections which actually researched the American Twitter

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International 10 75: and the number of the

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International 10 75: Republican like an altrid publics on Twitter, which you are really writing a lot about the elections in Ukraine. Not happening, you know, like. And you really see how it's used and overuse. So there is a there is a system in which you know why there is usually the controversy of the Marshall law in the elections, because there is always a politician who wants to use this UN security situation for not to be, you know, like

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International 10 75: for not to having the selections. There is no, there is no doubt in Ukraine that there is a full scale invasion. There is full scale invasion. It's like it's not a pretext. It's so much more pretext that is so obvious and so much common sense. The Ukrainian Institution, you know, like, was written in a way we well, in the time when Ukrainians didn't think there would be ever war.

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International 10 75: so there is a limitation on how you pull the elections. But of course there are a lot of practicalities. First of all, how you want to add millions. People are refugees and displaced, and because if Ukrainians want, they want to have fair elections.

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International 10 75: They want to have not elections for elections, but the fair ones. If you have a million people who are fighting the army, represent all kind of society, and are important, you know voices who won't take the elections. Would the observers come? No. Can you provide a security

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International 10 75: during these elections one month gathering one month gathering, and

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International 10 75: and then you really won't have the you know, attack. And and who would be responsible? So there are the challenges of that. Of course there is like the

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International 10 75: also that the other 3 points, if you speak about the

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International 10 75: you know, political aspect of that

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International 10 75: first of all, people know that during even in the, you know.

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International 10 75: government is looking for clarity.

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International 10 75: the figures are still high, and people do not change

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International 10 75: the leaders during the war. Usually they don't unless they're totally unsatisfied. Otherwise you also need to have a very, you know, kind of clearly

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International 10 75: alternative. Ukrainian position is not really willing to have these elections because they want. They think the government is still very popular compared to that, and they think that with a war, they have less cancer. So so that is it. That is the other thing.

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International 10 75: So there are the particular limitations. Or, for instance.

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International 10 75: we have the system in which the head of the Parliament can be potentially acting

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International 10 75: head of State.

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International 10 75: If there is no President

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International 10 75: but in that capacity this person cannot have no right

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International 10 75: to fire

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International 10 75: commander in chief

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International 10 75: of the army, and you want to have the country in which there is a civil civilian oversight over the military, and there would be somebody who is capable to fire the milit, the the military commander. So you know, like there are the things which, of course, Ukraine need to undergo, to adapt the Constitution, which is also pretty tricky, to, to adapt the Constitution, and to provide this major change on how to hold the elections

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International 10 75: during the war, you know. But I think that if you really speak about the common sense.

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International 10 75: it's really also about the money. Ukraine is lacking finance and resources to defend people, to protect, lives, to procure weapon. And then everybody who is in the trench. Everybody who is in the city in the frontline would think like, are you kidding us? You know we really like real things to save our lives, do we held that for what? And I think that is probably, if you really speak about like kind of

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International 10 75: common sense of the Ukrainians would be the major things like, I'll be ready to spend very expensive money

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International 10 75: for something which

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International 10 75: yes, we would like, maybe be a different person. There would be victory, and I think that now the opposition is speaking, that there should be, at least.

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International 10 75: you know, like the elections could be help the months of the ceasefire, or to something that that should be like very fast process. But that should be first security. Yeah, yeah. So yeah.

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International 10 75: well, we're out of time. But I wanna say, how inspiring it is to hear about the the work that that you're doing, and maybe you've enabled all of us to be, if not optimistic, at least hopeful, like you. I I maybe we have like one final lot, because I didn't want to to miss it. I might especially now.

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International 10 75: you know, in the context, we are internationally

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International 10 75: what is also very important for us is

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International 10 75: not to get into the competitions of the 2 hoods.

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International 10 75: And I think, Ukrainians. Why, what we are trying also to say about the solidarity

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International 10 75: and global solidarity. You know, the word makes Ukrainians care about other conflicts. We didn't care because what we didn't have

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International 10 75: what I also believe that the people who, because I often like ask, you know, all type of the questions, how about Gaza? How about this? How about that? Why, Ukraine?

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International 10 75: I think that, you know I never answer this question. Usually, you know, by the people who suffer usually this from somebody outside I would ask about, you know, but but Syrians by somebody in Berlin, but never by Syrians, you know, like the same with with with what happening now in the Middle East, and I understand, like the the place we're sitting. So I I I really think that why we are speaking that much for the justice. I I really think that the challenges are so big that

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International 10 75: you know impunity

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International 10 75: anywhere, you know, causes harm everywhere.

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International 10 75: So for us, as our lawyer says for us, you know, I think, that it's very important that we all understand as a smaller country. You really can't change a lot of things on your own.

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International 10 75: but you know it's not a competing causes, you know. You really think like it's a cause. You you really so, therefore, at this moment I we also trying to say, like it's not. We're competing again. One's cause saying like, No, we have more important. Everything is important. It just like together. It's possible to pursue and sort out, because we obviously understand some things of not working.

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International 10 75: But return to my point.

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International 10 75: As I said, like in case of Ukraine, there is a political view. There is a society, there is a way, there are tools, so there is no excuse not to act in this regard. What I what I'm saying, of course, very hard to pursue, you know, like the flight which is very hard to win. It leaves you a bit disappointed. But in case of Ukraine, you know, like

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International 10 75: you clearly see that there are things which can be done

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International 10 75: on that note. Let's thank. And I probably.