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you
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hello everyone
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this is Michael berry director of the
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Center for Chinese Studies at UCLA and
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this is a continuation of our CCS online
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speaker series and it's my great
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pleasure to introduce today's speaker
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Liz Carter Liz is a doctoral candidate
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here in the Department of Asian
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languages and cultures at UCLA working
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on Chinese linguistics
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she is also a prolific author editor
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translator she is the author of a book
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called let a hundred voices speak on the
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Internet culture in China
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she's also the co-author of a book
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called the grass mud horse lexicon
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published by China digital times she in
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a former incarnation was managing editor
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for tea leaf nation and is currently a
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contributor to the LA Review of Books
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China channel and she's also translated
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numerous books articles and publications
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and we're just so happy that she has
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returned to the center of Chinese
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Studies she was part of one of our CCS
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scholars forum several months back and
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today she has a kind of bigger forum to
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share her research on the Chinese
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internet and so without further ado I'm
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gonna hand it over to Liz and again
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thank you so much for taking time out of
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your quarantine to share your thoughts
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and reflections on Chinese internet
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culture thanks professor berry for the
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introduction
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I always feel after professor berry
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introduces me I should say please lower
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your expectations by at least 50 percent
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um today I'm just going to be giving
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kind of an overview of social media in
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People's Republic of China
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some of it is topics content that I
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covered in my book and some of it is
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things that happen afterwards so without
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further ado let me set up my powerpoint
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here okay I believe I will set it up and
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then
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share screen first so you can see it
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right yes do you see the presenters view
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I see presenters view okay let me sorry
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this is the first time I've done a
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PowerPoint like this remotely I have a
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to monitor setup so it's a little tricky
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okay I'm guessing you're still seeing
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the prisoners view yes how about now now
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we have appropriate view okay excellent
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thank you for bearing with me so the
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title of the presentation is wired China
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from Weibo to WeChat there's some about
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Weibo and then we'll move towards
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talking about WeChat later in the
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presentation so basically I'll cover how
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the internet came to China in its early
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days the relationship between the
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government and social media which
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includes but is not limited to
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censorship how what the transition into
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more use of WeChat means for social
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media and a bit about future directions
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of surveillance and censorship so I like
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to ask in this presentation
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when was the internet invented we can't
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do kind of like a live poll right now
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but it really reveals what people think
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about as the Internet so is it the thing
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we used to connect with people is it the
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hardware the software how we use those
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things together you know there's aspects
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of it that are publicly and privately
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owned but basically kind of the
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foundations were laid in the 60s and 70s
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in that by the 80s which is when the
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internet first came to China it was kind
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of mainly being used to connect
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institutions together and by the 90s it
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was being more used to connect or for
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individuals to connect with each other
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but what does that mean
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for China so this is a graph and I've
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taken the data from CNNIC which is a PRC
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government institution which collects
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this kind of information a couple of
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times a year it tracks the growth of the
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population of Internet users in the PRC
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and it's in millions so you can see in
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2006 it was about 150 million and by
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March 2020 it's usually released the
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beginning of the year but obviously you
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know
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or some delays this year due to a global
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pandemic it's right up there at 900
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million and as you can see this also
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tracks mobile Internet users as a
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percentage of Internet users in total
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and as of 2020 the two groups are almost
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totally overlapping circles in a Venn
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diagram so you can see how the Internet
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is becoming more mobile and it's
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becoming something that the majority of
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people in the PRC do use however if you
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compared Internet penetration with the
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US you might see a slightly different
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picture so in 2006 70 percent were
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roughly seventy percent of the u.s.
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population used the Internet
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and that was when it was about between
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100 and 200 million in the PRC and then
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as of 2019 the level of Internet
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penetration in the PRC is still below
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what it was about 15 years ago in the US
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and this has a lot to do with Internet
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infrastructure especially in rural areas
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and different definitions of what is an
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Internet user but you can see the lines
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are still converging the World Bank
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doesn't have data for the u.s. after
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2017 which is why that chart kind of
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ends where it ends but what is the
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internet used for I mean is it the same
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thing in both countries you could say
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it's used access information for
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instance what is the weather today you
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know what's the exchange rate between
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these things how do you spell
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maintenance the various things we use it
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for a day-to-day basis access to
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services you know post mates whatever it
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is you're using for grocery delivery all
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of those things rely on the Internet
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there's also entertainment communication
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and of course education so I pulled this
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chart also off CNNIC and just translated
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a couple of the more interesting
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category
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so this compares the growth over the
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past two years in the use of the
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Internet for certain applications so as
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you can see messaging guru from ninety
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five point six to ninety nine point two
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percent the vast almost virtually
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everyone who uses the Internet in the
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PRC will use it for messaging that is
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the number one use of it online video
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also grew substantially and this
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includes
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tiptop which is very popular in PRC as
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well online payment grew quite a bit
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search engine remained steady online
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news dipped a little bit and as you can
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see the most dramatic growth from 2018
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to 2020 is the use of the internet for
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online education which is something I'm
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sure you can all in device with so now
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that we've talked a little bit about
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kind of how many people use the Internet
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and what's it used for I want to get
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into censorship so I'm sure a lot of you
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are familiar with the term the Great
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Firewall it's kind of a catch-all term
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to describe whatever it is that blocks
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people who are physically in the PRC
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from seeing a lot of the internet that's
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outside of the PRC so this is just a
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list of some of the websites YouTube
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Twitter Facebook WordPress eBay that are
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blocked which means if you try to access
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them in the PRC usually you'll get 404
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not found or you just won't be able to
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load the page this is also a slightly
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more updated list of some of the things
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that are blocked just to give you an
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idea if you've never used the internet
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when you're in the PRC basically all of
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the major messaging services besides we
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chat so whatsapp telegram Kakao Talk
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which is popular in South Korea line
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which does popular in Japan facebook
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Messenger social media like Instagram
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YouTube Pinterest Facebook Twitter
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snapchat and tinder and then down here
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you have Netflix Vimeo YouTube all the
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major kind of video sites besides their
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Chinese counter
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parts and something that's particularly
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difficult for a lot of people who are
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trying to complete their degrees in the
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US or other places is cloud storage or
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productivity sites like Dropbox Google
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Docs Google Drive it can be difficult to
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access these without what's called a
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virtual private connection in the VPN so
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what do people do if they don't access
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these sites
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well there's domestic counterparts for
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almost all of these companies or these
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applications or web sites so Google
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actually Bible who always had a much
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larger percentage of the market than
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Google and it is the domestic the major
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player in the search engine market in
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PRC Weibo kind of takes the place of
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Twitter which was blocked especially
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after it was blocked a way both became
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much more popular WeChat is used kind of
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in it says it's a Facebook equivalent
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but it's the equivalent of a lot of
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different apps so it has Instagram like
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features as Yelp like features will get
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into WeChat later but YouTube in kind of
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the same market that YouTube would have
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in other parts of the world
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yo cool and I see in several of their
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video streaming services have a bit of a
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monopoly on that so um we can talk about
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censorship
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as meaning you know these websites are
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blocked so you have to use these other
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websites but that's kind of a very
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simplistic understanding of censorship
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it's much more nuanced and complicated
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than that so we talked about all the
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things you can do with the Internet it's
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all the different restrictions to those
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uses of the Internet so restriction of
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access to information restriction of
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access to services restriction of
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certain entertainment content and
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restriction of certain kinds of
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communication and also surveillance
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that's kind of the cherry on top so
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methods of censorship include as I
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mentioned blocking these websites but
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also deleting content banning users
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banning search term
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jamling users cracking down on VPNs and
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shutting down the internet so as you can
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see it's a combination of kind of the
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harder approaches such as completely
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blocking a website or you allow a
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website to be accessible but you require
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the person running the website to
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monitor the content for instance and
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delete anything that violates some kind
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of standard you can ban users who
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violate a kind of that standard you can
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even jail users who for these kind of
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like online speech events and you can
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there's VPNs which I mentioned you can
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use to access kind of the outside
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Internet there's been repeated
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crackdowns on VPNs so it's more and more
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difficult kind of to get around the
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Great Firewall and then finally they're
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shutting down the Internet which sounds
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extremely dystopian and unlikely but it
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actually happened in Xinjiang in 2009
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for a period of about 10 months between
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2009 to 2010 following the riots the
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entire province of Xinjiang you could
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not access the internet you had to leave
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the province kind of to check your email
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so it's worth mentioning just because
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it's kind of the nuclear option but it
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is and has it has been used and could be
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used again and I always like to mention
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when I talk about the Great Firewall
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that it's not just kind of you know
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amorphous Chinese authorities or Chinese
280
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government who is doing this there's US
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companies who have been complicit kind
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of and helping the both infrastructure
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construction of the Great Firewall also
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the Golden Shield project is the
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official name for much of the
286
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infrastructure development that's
287
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considered the Great Firewall and Yahoo
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also famously shared the emails of an
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activist and based on kind of that those
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divulged emails he was put in jail for
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some time
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so I just want to show a short video of
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I can find it here right so this is the
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video that's kind of gives a little bit
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more of an explainer about the technical
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aspects of censorship and it's a video
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by a YouTube account called wasting Jen
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or a paper clip that does kind of
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explainer videos like how does this work
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00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:36,779
I've subtitled it in English but one
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thing you should know I'm kind of that
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00:14:36,779 --> 00:14:41,490
will help the video make sense is that
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the example that's used in the video is
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about the assassination of the brother
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of Kim jong-un so Kim jong-nam was
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00:14:46,649 --> 00:14:52,829
assassinated in 2017 and this was kind
307
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of a sensitive political event and a lot
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00:14:52,829 --> 00:14:58,819
of commentary on it so with that said I
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don't mean an intuitive movers universal
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00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:20,569
international talent for passivity to
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charity I don't
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00:17:31,910 --> 00:17:39,270
and she wants our agent Romero someone
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went into the Monaro so change from
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community which is usually that you
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should teach using curly wavy there's
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someone coming can you see you see Harry
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way back again and see the main cloud
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00:17:58,470 --> 00:18:07,290
ethology from innate immunity idol pays
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you don't look any way back when she
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00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:17,040
passes and shook a woman women
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konnichiwa Second Treatise incomes for
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00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,050
the hugest isn't worried it's already
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consider each hug
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00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:26,840
mrs. shankle slimming and carry on
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future to Hashem in condemning every way
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00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:32,340
Joe Pearce from Patricia Institute's
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oasis alien character
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00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:37,470
temptation douche yourself a true change
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facial Athenian 31 and salmon sushi
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00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:42,030
jumpin Julia whether she said to you at
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a mobile phone yes YouTube admin and
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their own controller so that video kind
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of dives into the technical aspect of it
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00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:06,600
and that's just one technical aspect of
335
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it there's all sorts of software and
336
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,130
technologies that have kind of been
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developed to handle the tasks and
338
00:19:11,130 --> 00:19:17,580
requirements of censorship but I want to
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00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:20,400
take a step back and talk a little bit
340
00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:23,160
about the stages of censorship
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so there's when I consider the rough
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00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:29,040
refined and commercialized stages that
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go with kind of the first introduction
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of the Internet the development of the
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Internet and kind of web 2.0 so the
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00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,230
rough stage in the was the initial laws
347
00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:41,850
and first it was just laws that had to
348
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:44,250
do with other things like publishing
349
00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:46,169
being applied to the internet gradually
350
00:19:44,250 --> 00:19:47,790
there were laws drafted that were
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00:19:46,169 --> 00:19:50,730
dealing specifically with the internet
352
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:54,480
kind of as a platform for speech in
353
00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:56,549
through the late 90s and these were kind
354
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,799
of like a wild west of the internet
355
00:19:56,549 --> 00:20:00,660
because a lot of the people drafting the
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00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:02,309
laws I guess didn't really use the
357
00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:04,470
internet the internet was so new no one
358
00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:07,380
knew about it no one could really fathom
359
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:10,320
what its potential would be or its scale
360
00:20:07,380 --> 00:20:12,990
or scope so it was in force also
361
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,370
sporadically it was much easier to
362
00:20:12,990 --> 00:20:15,660
access a lot of different kinds of
363
00:20:14,370 --> 00:20:17,640
content and sites there was less
364
00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:20,370
surveillance at the time as
365
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,870
infrastructure developed in the 2000s
366
00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:24,080
especially with the Golden Shield
367
00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:28,650
project and kind of government-backed
368
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:32,490
funding development like that censorship
369
00:20:28,650 --> 00:20:34,740
became more refined so to determine
370
00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:36,270
which web sites there became more
371
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refined ways of determining which web
372
00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:41,630
sites would be blocked certain kinds of
373
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search terms would be blocked
374
00:20:41,630 --> 00:20:44,980
surveillance also picked up during this
375
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time
376
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:51,010
then after this in the 2000s and 2010's
377
00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:54,160
there's a lot more outsourcing to
378
00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:56,590
private companies so the government
379
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,780
would say to private companies operating
380
00:20:56,590 --> 00:21:01,929
in the PRC
381
00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:04,929
you have to maintain a certain standard
382
00:21:01,929 --> 00:21:08,320
on your website these terms you know
383
00:21:04,929 --> 00:21:10,240
filter and censor these terms and topics
384
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,970
there would be kind of more frequent
385
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:18,340
directives about what kind of content
386
00:21:12,970 --> 00:21:19,750
was to be erased or blocked and then
387
00:21:18,340 --> 00:21:21,460
this companies themselves became
388
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:25,570
responsible for a lot of the day to day
389
00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:27,880
kind of censorship work so companies for
390
00:21:25,570 --> 00:21:30,250
instance like sino a bull would employ
391
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,900
in-house censorship teams to deal with a
392
00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:35,040
lot of things that previously might have
393
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:38,770
been the government's responsibility I
394
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:41,110
could argue that these three stages have
395
00:21:38,770 --> 00:21:43,090
kind of come to an end and now we are in
396
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:47,020
a fourth stage which is the
397
00:21:43,090 --> 00:21:50,980
normalization of censorship so what does
398
00:21:47,020 --> 00:21:52,570
that mean it's perceived as inevitable
399
00:21:50,980 --> 00:21:54,400
it's enforced mainly through
400
00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:56,890
intimidation deterrence and
401
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,419
internalization it's maintained by
402
00:21:56,890 --> 00:22:00,130
leveraging pre-existing norms
403
00:21:58,419 --> 00:22:01,870
reframed as necessary for the greater
404
00:22:00,130 --> 00:22:06,130
good and conflated with national
405
00:22:01,870 --> 00:22:07,900
identity so for instance take in force
406
00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:11,679
mainly through intimidation deterrence
407
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:14,500
and internalization um just knowing that
408
00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:16,660
you could potentially be jailed or have
409
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:18,940
your account deleted for saying
410
00:22:16,660 --> 00:22:20,860
something or arguing a certain point
411
00:22:18,940 --> 00:22:23,080
makes me much less likely to do that
412
00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:25,720
because I don't know about you but you
413
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,630
know if I've posted ten thousand times
414
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,220
on this website you know I've invested a
415
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:34,150
lot of my time in that I don't want it
416
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:36,450
to just disappear overnight much less go
417
00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:40,750
to jail maintained by leveraging
418
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:42,070
pre-existing norms so you wouldn't want
419
00:22:40,750 --> 00:22:43,990
to do something that could get your
420
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:45,549
family in trouble he's basically the
421
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:46,780
simplest way of putting that they could
422
00:22:45,549 --> 00:22:48,700
get your friends in trouble they could
423
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:50,679
get your company in trouble then you
424
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:54,130
would could be blamed for being a
425
00:22:50,679 --> 00:22:55,600
troublemaker and you know bad things
426
00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:57,700
could happen to people you care about
427
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,800
so the pre-existing norm of caring about
428
00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:01,440
people around you
429
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,140
of being a responsible employee all of
430
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,630
that is leverage to make sure that you
431
00:23:04,140 --> 00:23:09,300
kind of abide by the rules that say
432
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:11,460
don't say this certain thing even though
433
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:15,420
the rules may be ambiguous that actually
434
00:23:11,460 --> 00:23:17,630
makes it even harder to determine where
435
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:20,010
the line is and encourages even more
436
00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:21,660
self-censorship
437
00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:23,520
we're framed as necessary for the
438
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:26,520
greater good so there's all sorts of
439
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:30,510
arguments for why certain censorship is
440
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,920
okay in the US the kind of standard
441
00:23:30,510 --> 00:23:34,130
that's often touted is a clear and
442
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,840
present danger so that's the kind of the
443
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:38,250
the threshold for deciding if something
444
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,200
if the government can tell you not to
445
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:41,670
say something you wouldn't shout fire in
446
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,710
a crowded movie theater because it poses
447
00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:46,200
a clear and present danger other
448
00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:48,240
countries have other standards for what
449
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,750
they determined to be unacceptable for
450
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,910
illegal speech and and finally conflated
451
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:56,970
with national identity if you criticize
452
00:23:53,910 --> 00:24:01,440
a system it could be perceived as not
453
00:23:56,970 --> 00:24:03,300
being patriotic so there's all sorts of
454
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,770
books out there about this I just wanted
455
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,140
to point out a few in case this is a
456
00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:10,280
topic that you're interested in doing
457
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:12,780
more research on uh Margaret u Roberts
458
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,570
who worked on the Harvard team that did
459
00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:19,410
some of the initial studies and reverse
460
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:21,980
engineering censorship has the book
461
00:24:19,410 --> 00:24:24,810
she's come out with called censored
462
00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:28,560
contesting cyber space in China the
463
00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:31,500
power being unit in China by quo being
464
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:35,130
young blocked on Weibo which deals
465
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:37,290
specifically with search terms looking
466
00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:39,780
at different terms on Weibo so these are
467
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:44,010
all good to check out if you want to do
468
00:24:39,780 --> 00:24:46,440
further meeting so different scholars
469
00:24:44,010 --> 00:24:48,900
kind of have different ways of kind of
470
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,460
drawing analogies about censorship we've
471
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,520
talked about the Great Firewall which
472
00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:55,770
draws on the analogy of the Great Wall
473
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,750
like the Great Wall it's not just one
474
00:24:55,770 --> 00:25:00,660
thing it's a combination of a number of
475
00:24:57,750 --> 00:25:02,250
things it's kind of like has the
476
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:04,350
significance the Great Wall was built
477
00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:07,140
during different eras you know it
478
00:25:04,350 --> 00:25:09,150
doesn't all connect at this point the
479
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:11,060
Great Firewall is also kind of different
480
00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:12,330
censorship math methods that all work
481
00:25:11,060 --> 00:25:13,860
forces
482
00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:15,480
for the purpose of censorship but may
483
00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:17,940
not necessarily be part of the same
484
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,280
bogie errant poll there's also the
485
00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:21,900
anaconda and the chandelier you know if
486
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,850
there's a snake up in the chandelier
487
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,920
just by the fact that it's there you're
488
00:25:23,850 --> 00:25:28,830
gonna want to stay away so that's the
489
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,560
deterrence not knowing when it's going
490
00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:35,240
to strike makes you more likely to be
491
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,770
careful kind of guard what you say
492
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,530
there's the idea of the gilded cage
493
00:25:37,770 --> 00:25:43,290
so the anaconda in the chandelier was
494
00:25:40,530 --> 00:25:46,560
something Perry linked famously said the
495
00:25:43,290 --> 00:25:48,960
gilded cage is another analogy that
496
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,480
points out that the Chinese Internet can
497
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,930
actually be a very fun place so there's
498
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,900
a lot of entertainment there's a lot of
499
00:25:53,930 --> 00:26:00,420
things you can do online in the PRC that
500
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:02,970
makes it more bearable you know that you
501
00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:05,730
can't use it to access Facebook or you
502
00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:08,490
know different kinds of foreign media so
503
00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:11,040
while it is a restricted space there's
504
00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:12,900
also you know some upsides it's more
505
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,710
like great brave new world in that since
506
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:18,450
than 1984 sometimes and then finally
507
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:22,020
there's the analogy of the pressure
508
00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:24,450
valve system the idea that censorship is
509
00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:27,720
something that's not static it can be
510
00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:30,990
loosened and tightened depending on
511
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:34,350
different needs so this is kind of
512
00:26:30,990 --> 00:26:36,780
coming to the analogy that I made in my
513
00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:38,370
book it's a little bit of historical
514
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:41,480
background there's the hundred Flowers
515
00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:45,060
campaign which took place in the 1950s
516
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:48,000
so it was a campaign in which Mao Zedong
517
00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:49,860
the leader at the time said the policy
518
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,690
of letting a hundred flowers bloom and a
519
00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:53,820
puppet of schools of thought contend is
520
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:55,950
designed to promote the flourishing of
521
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:59,720
the Arts and the progress of science so
522
00:26:55,950 --> 00:27:02,970
this was said 1956 this was a time when
523
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:07,200
intellectuals were encouraged to offer
524
00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:09,510
criticism and their own ideas about how
525
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,130
things should be run you know the PRC
526
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:15,420
was just founded less than ten years
527
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:18,840
prior and he was a movement in which you
528
00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:22,500
know previously a more tight space for
529
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:25,710
this force was opened but in the next
530
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:27,930
year in 1957 was the beginning
531
00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:29,730
the anti-rightist campaign so Mao Zedong
532
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:31,560
said the attack from the right has not
533
00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:33,480
reached his height they are terribly
534
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,530
excited we will let them be crazy for a
535
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:39,360
while yet let them reach their peak so
536
00:27:36,530 --> 00:27:41,040
some people have speculated that the
537
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:45,690
hundred Flowers campaign was a
538
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:48,000
deliberate move to loosen the space to
539
00:27:45,690 --> 00:27:51,180
make people more able to share criticism
540
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,980
for multiple reasons one that
541
00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:56,240
information and input was desperately
542
00:27:52,980 --> 00:28:01,070
needed at the very beginning of the PRC
543
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:04,920
ideas about the economy society politics
544
00:28:01,070 --> 00:28:07,080
governance and - it helped identify
545
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,480
people who would potentially become
546
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,400
dissidents or critics who were then
547
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,730
subsequently targeted in the
548
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,610
anti-rightist campaign so that is one of
549
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:19,650
the reasons that I chose the title for
550
00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:22,230
this book like 100 voices speak because
551
00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:24,030
oh there was a period of time on Weibo
552
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:27,810
where there was much more free and open
553
00:28:24,030 --> 00:28:30,530
discussion and I don't think that was an
554
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:30,530
accident I think
555
00:28:30,669 --> 00:28:36,009
you know there's always going to be
556
00:28:32,609 --> 00:28:38,590
times when it's more there's more or
557
00:28:36,009 --> 00:28:40,840
less control over what's acceptable to
558
00:28:38,590 --> 00:28:42,369
be said but many of the people who spoke
559
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,619
out during this time period were
560
00:28:42,369 --> 00:28:47,889
subsequently targeted and many of them
561
00:28:44,619 --> 00:28:49,779
didn't end up in jail however you know
562
00:28:47,889 --> 00:28:51,519
that period of time did provide the
563
00:28:49,779 --> 00:28:54,269
government with a lot of information
564
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:57,399
about the sources of public discontent
565
00:28:54,269 --> 00:28:59,470
ideas for reform what could be tolerated
566
00:28:57,399 --> 00:29:03,159
what could not be tolerated
567
00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:05,769
so when you think about a kind of the
568
00:29:03,159 --> 00:29:09,059
Internet as a pressure valve if you stop
569
00:29:05,769 --> 00:29:12,580
people from speaking out or criticizing
570
00:29:09,059 --> 00:29:15,850
policies or people that discontent
571
00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:17,950
doesn't just go away you know it doesn't
572
00:29:15,850 --> 00:29:19,720
you cannot erase that you can just kind
573
00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:22,869
of block it so if you think of it as a
574
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:30,549
pressure valve periodically you know
575
00:29:22,869 --> 00:29:31,899
people will become upset or dissatisfied
576
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:35,739
enough that they will still say
577
00:29:31,899 --> 00:29:37,059
something so it's something if you look
578
00:29:35,739 --> 00:29:39,340
back over history just because the
579
00:29:37,059 --> 00:29:43,029
Internet is new doesn't mean policies
580
00:29:39,340 --> 00:29:45,129
related to censorship are new everything
581
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:47,649
becomes new in a way but it's important
582
00:29:45,129 --> 00:29:50,799
to kind of ground it in terms of what
583
00:29:47,649 --> 00:29:52,450
has happened in the past so what are
584
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,070
some of the things that did happen on
585
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:56,070
weibo during that time period when it
586
00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:58,869
was kind of a platform for more ugly
587
00:29:56,070 --> 00:30:02,259
open discussion some even consider it
588
00:29:58,869 --> 00:30:04,210
kind of a public square so one of the
589
00:30:02,259 --> 00:30:06,399
primary things that's often cited and I
590
00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:08,440
talked about more in the book is taking
591
00:30:06,399 --> 00:30:10,450
down corrupt officials so individual
592
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:15,519
corrupt officials were kind of exposed
593
00:30:10,450 --> 00:30:17,499
on Weibo and for instance on the left
594
00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:20,590
here you see watch brother so he
595
00:30:17,499 --> 00:30:22,929
different pictures of this local
596
00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:24,489
official were discovered online in which
597
00:30:22,929 --> 00:30:27,429
he was wearing various different
598
00:30:24,489 --> 00:30:29,019
expensive watches and people online did
599
00:30:27,429 --> 00:30:30,940
the math and said there's no way he
600
00:30:29,019 --> 00:30:32,649
could afford all of those Rolexes if
601
00:30:30,940 --> 00:30:36,220
he's really just getting his income as a
602
00:30:32,649 --> 00:30:39,129
local official the one on the left is
603
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:44,559
lee jong-kul he's also he was a local
604
00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:46,840
official who was notoriously so wealthy
605
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:49,960
that real-estate developers could no
606
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,870
longer afford to bribe him and so they
607
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:57,460
set a honey trap for him and recorded
608
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:59,019
him basically having sex with someone
609
00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:01,509
they'd sent to kind of do the sting
610
00:30:59,019 --> 00:31:03,730
operation and then threatened to expose
611
00:31:01,509 --> 00:31:05,379
him in that way it came to light that he
612
00:31:03,730 --> 00:31:07,570
had been involved in all of this kind of
613
00:31:05,379 --> 00:31:11,499
embezzlement and once it was exposed
614
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:15,220
online he was punched so a lot of kind
615
00:31:11,499 --> 00:31:18,879
of lower-level officials did get taken
616
00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:21,309
down due to outpouring of public opinion
617
00:31:18,879 --> 00:31:23,440
on the Internet
618
00:31:21,309 --> 00:31:26,200
there was also protests against chemical
619
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,690
plants NIMBY protests and these kind of
620
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:33,210
gained awareness for their cause on
621
00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:36,730
Weibo in different places around China
622
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:40,799
because people felt that the plants
623
00:31:36,730 --> 00:31:43,090
would cause pollution in their hometowns
624
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:45,909
monitoring of air quality was a big way
625
00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:48,519
that Weibo is used to push for policy
626
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:52,980
change people would post pictures this
627
00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:56,679
is two images of Beijing the CCTV tower
628
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:59,590
on different days air pollution was
629
00:31:56,679 --> 00:32:02,350
fairly bad and the US Embassy was
630
00:31:59,590 --> 00:32:06,519
tweeting or actually posting on Weibo
631
00:32:02,350 --> 00:32:09,159
the it monitored from I think the third
632
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:11,110
Ring Road in the city and then posted
633
00:32:09,159 --> 00:32:12,879
the figures about air pollution every
634
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:16,090
day and eventually I believe it was
635
00:32:12,879 --> 00:32:20,080
removed but people continue to post the
636
00:32:16,090 --> 00:32:23,320
information on Weibo and it was also
637
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,490
kind of the bursts of or perhaps not the
638
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,480
birthplace but a place where
639
00:32:24,490 --> 00:32:28,480
counterculture and
640
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,480
anti censorship language thrived so a
641
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,230
good example is Tommy ma which is the
642
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,179
grass mud horse is kind of a symbol of
643
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:38,980
anti censorship if you pronounce it a
644
00:32:37,179 --> 00:32:42,220
different way it means [ __ ] your mother
645
00:32:38,980 --> 00:32:44,950
but in order to get around some
646
00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:49,360
automated censorship changing the three
647
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:52,899
characters into grass mud horse helps
648
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,730
the the term be posted whereas initially
649
00:32:52,899 --> 00:32:56,679
it might be just filtered out kind of
650
00:32:54,730 --> 00:32:57,950
the same as putting an asterisk when
651
00:32:56,679 --> 00:33:01,220
you're typing
652
00:32:57,950 --> 00:33:04,309
curse words there's a whole you know
653
00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:06,409
group of other mythical creatures or
654
00:33:04,309 --> 00:33:07,940
characters that come about because of
655
00:33:06,409 --> 00:33:10,340
this kind of wordplay and this kind of
656
00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:13,750
wordplay became more and more developed
657
00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:16,970
over the course of censorship and label
658
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:19,870
there's also rights activism happen on
659
00:33:16,970 --> 00:33:23,179
Weibull so this is shoe tree on who has
660
00:33:19,870 --> 00:33:25,039
now been detained again but he was
661
00:33:23,179 --> 00:33:25,519
active on social media and on the
662
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,649
Internet
663
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:32,269
I'm kind of campaigning for a citizen's
664
00:33:27,649 --> 00:33:34,730
rights movement so lawyers especially
665
00:33:32,269 --> 00:33:36,860
rights defense lawyers use the platform
666
00:33:34,730 --> 00:33:40,460
to raise awareness of their cases in
667
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:44,120
their cause and promoted what was called
668
00:33:40,460 --> 00:33:46,299
same city dinners which were a form of
669
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,190
kind of community networking activism
670
00:33:46,299 --> 00:33:51,460
and they used platform Weibo as well as
671
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:56,049
other platforms
672
00:33:51,460 --> 00:34:00,200
however this period did not last forever
673
00:33:56,049 --> 00:34:05,080
so this is Samantha or Charles Chia who
674
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:07,610
is a US citizen living in China who was
675
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,980
kind of one of the first public victims
676
00:34:07,610 --> 00:34:12,169
of the crackdown so there was a period
677
00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:14,659
in which Weibo was a relatively speaking
678
00:34:12,169 --> 00:34:16,790
free forum for discussion with
679
00:34:14,659 --> 00:34:21,200
censorship but quite ineffective for
680
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:23,899
sporadic censorship and then following
681
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,089
that there was a period of a harsher
682
00:34:23,899 --> 00:34:29,629
crackdown that first targeted some of
683
00:34:26,089 --> 00:34:31,550
the what are called big V's or verified
684
00:34:29,629 --> 00:34:35,839
users who had a lot of influence on the
685
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:39,220
platform so this man was known for
686
00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:42,349
tweeting or for posting on Weibo
687
00:34:39,220 --> 00:34:46,629
critically of the government and policy
688
00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:48,859
and various other issues and he was
689
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:52,119
arrested on charges of soliciting
690
00:34:48,859 --> 00:34:55,819
prostitutes in Beijing where he lived
691
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:58,010
and then a video of him making a
692
00:34:55,819 --> 00:35:00,230
confession was broadcast on national
693
00:34:58,010 --> 00:35:04,400
television in that confession he said
694
00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:07,250
you know I misused my position as an
695
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:10,099
influence our online I should not have
696
00:35:07,250 --> 00:35:11,990
been so critical and in seeking fame in
697
00:35:10,099 --> 00:35:13,400
that way so many people
698
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:17,780
felt because of the content of that
699
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:20,720
forced confession that the reason he was
700
00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:22,400
arrested was not the actual charge that
701
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:26,270
he was charged with but rather that he
702
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,190
was a very vocal critic online so
703
00:35:26,270 --> 00:35:30,260
following the targeting of the big fees
704
00:35:28,190 --> 00:35:32,480
or kind of the influential public
705
00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:34,310
opinion leaders there was a series of
706
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:39,740
other laws that were passed including
707
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:43,490
one that deemed that any rumor malicious
708
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:47,359
rumor that was retweeted more than 500
709
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:49,700
times could be penalized so for instance
710
00:35:47,359 --> 00:35:51,530
if I tweeted something that the
711
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:53,450
government deemed to be a rumor and then
712
00:35:51,530 --> 00:35:55,720
it gained a lot of traction a lot of
713
00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:58,220
people were retweeting it I could be
714
00:35:55,720 --> 00:36:01,430
liable I could face criminal charges
715
00:35:58,220 --> 00:36:06,530
because of that so the the phrase to be
716
00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:08,000
500 500 came about to mean it could be
717
00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:11,180
another way that the government could
718
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,520
target people who are critical of
719
00:36:11,180 --> 00:36:16,339
policies or say things the government
720
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,800
does not want them to say online so what
721
00:36:16,339 --> 00:36:20,030
is a rumor what is fact if the
722
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,560
government is ultimately the only
723
00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:24,619
authority to decide that then the
724
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:28,220
government has authority to police any
725
00:36:24,619 --> 00:36:30,619
kind of speech now that we've talked
726
00:36:28,220 --> 00:36:32,990
about Weibo which was the popular social
727
00:36:30,619 --> 00:36:34,250
media platform on which all this was
728
00:36:32,990 --> 00:36:37,640
happening I want to move a little bit
729
00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:38,930
more to waiting and at this point I also
730
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,349
want to make a distinction between
731
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:44,000
wasting and WeChat which is a lot of
732
00:36:42,349 --> 00:36:46,400
people do believe they're the same thing
733
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,940
and to an extent they're a similar
734
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:53,540
platform but waiting when as I talk
735
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:57,380
about it refers to weighting of accounts
736
00:36:53,540 --> 00:37:00,140
that are registered to PRC mobile
737
00:36:57,380 --> 00:37:02,450
numbers accounts that are registered to
738
00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:07,030
non PRC numbers
739
00:37:02,450 --> 00:37:10,160
initially have a different set of
740
00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:12,050
requirements and abilities on the
741
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,390
platform so there's things you can do if
742
00:37:12,050 --> 00:37:16,670
it's registered to a Chinese or PRC
743
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:20,000
mobile number so you cannot do if it's
744
00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:21,890
registered let's say to an LA number and
745
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,869
I recently learned that it doesn't
746
00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:25,819
matter if it's initially registered to a
747
00:37:23,869 --> 00:37:30,440
PRC number and you change it to be
748
00:37:25,819 --> 00:37:34,130
registered to a non PRC number it's
749
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:38,059
still subject to the PRC number rules
750
00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:39,440
and restrictions so we chat sorry I
751
00:37:38,059 --> 00:37:41,029
should back up a little bit and explain
752
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,849
what we chat is for people who don't use
753
00:37:41,029 --> 00:37:48,349
it it's like kind of like a messaging /
754
00:37:43,849 --> 00:37:51,259
social media / all-in-one app with 1.16
755
00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:52,519
billion monthly active users as of
756
00:37:51,259 --> 00:37:54,289
December 2019
757
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:55,729
according to 10 cents earnings report
758
00:37:54,289 --> 00:37:58,339
which they're required to do as a listed
759
00:37:55,729 --> 00:38:00,739
company WeChat in wasting are not
760
00:37:58,339 --> 00:38:04,729
exactly the same thing I was not able to
761
00:38:00,739 --> 00:38:06,739
find out exactly what percentage of
762
00:38:04,729 --> 00:38:08,329
users are considered wasting users and
763
00:38:06,739 --> 00:38:09,729
what are considered WeChat users I don't
764
00:38:08,329 --> 00:38:14,089
think that's information that they
765
00:38:09,729 --> 00:38:15,859
provide however I do want to show this
766
00:38:14,089 --> 00:38:18,289
video the New York Times said that
767
00:38:15,859 --> 00:38:20,719
explains a little bit more rather than
768
00:38:18,289 --> 00:38:22,969
me just talking at you about what we
769
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,140
chat can do and why it's such kind of
770
00:38:22,969 --> 00:38:33,949
like an all-encompassing
771
00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:36,229
app if you are sitting in the United
772
00:38:33,949 --> 00:38:38,390
States or Europe right now you find ever
773
00:38:36,229 --> 00:38:39,469
used to Chinese app but the reality is
774
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:41,719
if you want to know how the internet
775
00:38:39,469 --> 00:38:43,789
will develop China the land once known
776
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:47,660
for its cheap ripoffs is actually become
777
00:38:43,789 --> 00:38:50,390
a guide to the future you know the
778
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:52,249
Internet is but for China the Internet
779
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:54,529
is more like a neutron edge it's
780
00:38:52,249 --> 00:38:56,749
learning log off and Western world an
781
00:38:54,529 --> 00:38:58,509
incredibly complex system filters and
782
00:38:56,749 --> 00:39:01,339
blocks that we call the Great Firewall
783
00:38:58,509 --> 00:39:03,440
in basically the Great Firewall blocks
784
00:39:01,339 --> 00:39:06,140
any foreign site the Communist Party
785
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,499
doesn't control so that means there is
786
00:39:06,140 --> 00:39:11,449
no Facebook no Twitter no Google instead
787
00:39:09,499 --> 00:39:13,609
what filled the internet vacuum is a
788
00:39:11,449 --> 00:39:17,029
generation of Chinese copycats that have
789
00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:19,969
grown into huge companies for Google you
790
00:39:17,029 --> 00:39:21,680
advice for YouTube yoku for Twitter you
791
00:39:19,969 --> 00:39:24,890
have seen a wave or aqua the list goes
792
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,839
on it's almost as if the Chinese
793
00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:31,039
Internet is a lagoon is an aside to the
794
00:39:26,839 --> 00:39:32,719
greater ocean of these swamp monster ads
795
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:34,969
that there are some resemblance to the
796
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,709
creatures in the ocean there mutated in
797
00:39:34,969 --> 00:39:39,099
some ways because they evolved in a
798
00:39:36,709 --> 00:39:39,099
different
799
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:45,260
but things have started to shift in the
800
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,059
sense that before no one outside of
801
00:39:45,260 --> 00:39:49,579
computed really cared about the swamp
802
00:39:47,059 --> 00:39:51,230
monsters but now all of a sudden some of
803
00:39:49,579 --> 00:39:53,299
the features being developed are so
804
00:39:51,230 --> 00:39:57,619
amazing that Western apps are trying to
805
00:39:53,299 --> 00:39:59,900
copy the greatest example of this which
806
00:39:57,619 --> 00:40:02,569
has an example of for lack of a better
807
00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:05,260
word a super app it's a Swiss Army knife
808
00:40:02,569 --> 00:40:08,390
that basically does everything for you
809
00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:10,730
it's your whatsapp Facebook Skype and
810
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:12,829
uber it's your Amazon Instagram venmo
811
00:40:10,730 --> 00:40:14,809
and tinder but it's other things we
812
00:40:12,829 --> 00:40:16,190
don't even have apps for there are
813
00:40:14,809 --> 00:40:18,200
hospitals that built out whole
814
00:40:16,190 --> 00:40:20,599
appointment booking systems there are
815
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,849
investment services there even heat maps
816
00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:25,039
that show how crowded a place is be it
817
00:40:22,849 --> 00:40:27,109
your favorite shopping mall or a popular
818
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:30,559
tourist site the list of services goes
819
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:32,809
on basically forever but it's not the
820
00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:35,059
variety of things you can do on each end
821
00:40:32,809 --> 00:40:37,250
makes it so powerful it's the fact that
822
00:40:35,059 --> 00:40:39,609
they're all in one app so why does that
823
00:40:37,250 --> 00:40:39,609
matter
824
00:40:41,770 --> 00:40:45,200
hypothetically imagine you're sitting at
825
00:40:43,789 --> 00:40:47,510
home and one day you notice your core
826
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,950
gives dirty if you open WeChat hit a few
827
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:50,569
buttons and a few hours later a man
828
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:56,180
shows up at your door with some shampoo
829
00:40:50,569 --> 00:40:58,460
in a big bag you take a photo you share
830
00:40:56,180 --> 00:41:01,190
it with your friends and tag dog leaders
831
00:40:58,460 --> 00:41:02,779
you haven't left yet your friend who
832
00:41:01,190 --> 00:41:04,460
likes Hello Kitty and works at boring
833
00:41:02,779 --> 00:41:06,740
office job is slacking off at work and
834
00:41:04,460 --> 00:41:08,869
looking at WeChat she sees the photo of
835
00:41:06,740 --> 00:41:10,940
your clean quirky she decides she wants
836
00:41:08,869 --> 00:41:13,099
her food she clicks the tag on your
837
00:41:10,940 --> 00:41:14,750
photo and orders the same service within
838
00:41:13,099 --> 00:41:16,789
seconds command with the big vacuums on
839
00:41:14,750 --> 00:41:18,680
his way to her house she pays him and
840
00:41:16,789 --> 00:41:20,869
he's happy because he got paid instantly
841
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,609
chat she starts chatting with you to
842
00:41:20,869 --> 00:41:24,680
thank you neither you have left the app
843
00:41:22,609 --> 00:41:26,779
while chatting she tells you about a new
844
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,420
hip noodle joint she says you have to
845
00:41:26,779 --> 00:41:30,859
come it's a schlep but you accept she
846
00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:33,289
orders food while still at her desk
847
00:41:30,859 --> 00:41:35,029
you order a taxi she pays for the food
848
00:41:33,289 --> 00:41:36,650
on the way to her house the man with the
849
00:41:35,029 --> 00:41:37,760
big vacuum invests the money here and
850
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:39,260
from both of you into a wealth
851
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,930
management product that's probably a
852
00:41:39,260 --> 00:41:44,480
little too crisp neither of you nor the
853
00:41:41,930 --> 00:41:47,730
manager to vacuum have left yet both of
854
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,890
you arrived in the Aptos kitchen there
855
00:41:47,730 --> 00:41:51,810
you reach a profile photo pops up on the
856
00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:53,730
wall it's an old photo from the year you
857
00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:56,240
had that weird partner of course she
858
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:58,590
makes a comment your food is served
859
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:00,869
notice to your meat is a bit overcooked
860
00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:02,430
so you snap a photo and post disparaging
861
00:42:00,869 --> 00:42:03,780
restaurant review you're already on your
862
00:42:02,430 --> 00:42:05,070
phone and you remember you still know
863
00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:07,770
your friend money because she paid
864
00:42:05,070 --> 00:42:09,330
transfer her money neither you the man
865
00:42:07,770 --> 00:42:11,700
with the big vacuums know where the
866
00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:13,560
restaurant has left the act as the
867
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:16,050
restaurant there are no menus there are
868
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:19,440
no waiters there is no cashier there is
869
00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:21,330
only we check by rolling so many
870
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,930
functions into one single app it's
871
00:42:21,330 --> 00:42:27,300
altered the concept of morality it's no
872
00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:29,790
longer just videos or images or tweets
873
00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:31,830
that can go viral it's a dog washer
874
00:42:29,790 --> 00:42:33,450
noodles all sorts of companies and
875
00:42:31,830 --> 00:42:35,869
products that get the push of social
876
00:42:33,450 --> 00:42:47,670
network here in China that network is
877
00:42:35,869 --> 00:42:50,040
700 million people so the analogy of the
878
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:51,300
One Ring is a little dark but that kind
879
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,010
of demonstrates all the different things
880
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:57,900
you can do with WeChat and it's a very
881
00:42:53,010 --> 00:43:00,270
non exhaustive list so in terms of
882
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:03,900
censorship how is censorship on WeChat
883
00:43:00,270 --> 00:43:06,510
different from censorship on Weibo Weibo
884
00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:08,490
is an open social network it's much more
885
00:43:06,510 --> 00:43:10,290
like Twitter in that you can search for
886
00:43:08,490 --> 00:43:11,850
things people have said you can see what
887
00:43:10,290 --> 00:43:14,760
are the trending topics across the
888
00:43:11,850 --> 00:43:16,710
platform you know you it's all kind of
889
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,450
accessible to you you can see what other
890
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:20,760
people are talking about outside of your
891
00:43:18,450 --> 00:43:22,470
immediate circle with WeChat it's more
892
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,359
of a closed social network you mainly
893
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:27,420
see people who are in your friends
894
00:43:24,359 --> 00:43:30,450
circle or on your timeline it's people
895
00:43:27,420 --> 00:43:32,369
you know personally things public
896
00:43:30,450 --> 00:43:35,010
accounts you subscribe to but you can't
897
00:43:32,369 --> 00:43:37,440
for instance see oh what's the number
898
00:43:35,010 --> 00:43:41,750
one trending term across all of me chat
899
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:44,369
that's just not accessible it's more
900
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:46,200
strongly enforced real name registration
901
00:43:44,369 --> 00:43:49,619
so real name registration has always
902
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:53,730
been a push to link someone's online
903
00:43:49,619 --> 00:43:59,640
accounts to their real identity via
904
00:43:53,730 --> 00:44:00,900
their their ID number or their mobile
905
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,680
number which is linked to their ID
906
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:04,230
number so
907
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:07,290
it's always possible to track who for
908
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:09,540
law enforcement to track who is it you
909
00:44:07,290 --> 00:44:12,359
know whose name is you know Nick suck
910
00:44:09,540 --> 00:44:14,849
two seven eight you know what does this
911
00:44:12,359 --> 00:44:17,280
person's real name where do they live
912
00:44:14,849 --> 00:44:21,750
there's the count blocking so we chat is
913
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:25,890
so widely used to connect with your
914
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:27,690
family to text message to do all sorts
915
00:44:25,890 --> 00:44:31,309
of things that the threat of having that
916
00:44:27,690 --> 00:44:33,540
account blocked is much kind of more
917
00:44:31,309 --> 00:44:35,220
intimidating than the effect of having
918
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:36,770
your Weibo account blocked if you don't
919
00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:39,869
have WeChat you know how are you gonna
920
00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:41,819
send audio messages to your mom you know
921
00:44:39,869 --> 00:44:43,800
there's all sorts of you could text but
922
00:44:41,819 --> 00:44:45,450
most people use WeChat much more than
923
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,150
they text
924
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:50,099
there's also content screening and I
925
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:52,710
wanted to highlight this recent study
926
00:44:50,099 --> 00:44:56,460
that's been done by a great team at
927
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:58,260
citizen lab on different kinds of
928
00:44:56,460 --> 00:45:00,359
content screening for different kinds of
929
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:04,680
WeChat accounts so they did a very
930
00:45:00,359 --> 00:45:07,200
strong broad database study on how
931
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,940
international users those that are
932
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,299
registered accounts registered to non
933
00:45:08,940 --> 00:45:14,400
PRC numbers unwittingly build up the
934
00:45:12,299 --> 00:45:19,589
censorship apparatus and I won't go into
935
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:21,720
detail here but basically sometimes you
936
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:23,940
can send a message over WeChat and then
937
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:26,849
the other person doesn't receive it so
938
00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:30,960
in theory to international or non PRC
939
00:45:26,849 --> 00:45:35,190
users are accounts on WeChat are not
940
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:37,290
subject to that same censorship but
941
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:40,589
there's technical processing of that
942
00:45:37,290 --> 00:45:43,410
content that helps determine for the
943
00:45:40,589 --> 00:45:47,569
other accounts what is sensitive content
944
00:45:43,410 --> 00:45:51,180
which images and terms should be banned
945
00:45:47,569 --> 00:45:56,010
so the other side kind of of censorship
946
00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:58,290
and blocking and account banning is kind
947
00:45:56,010 --> 00:45:59,730
of the carrot to the stick so the social
948
00:45:58,290 --> 00:46:02,010
credit system which is still in the
949
00:45:59,730 --> 00:46:03,839
process of being kind of rolled out
950
00:46:02,010 --> 00:46:06,450
there's actually a number of different
951
00:46:03,839 --> 00:46:09,000
social credit systems that are kind of
952
00:46:06,450 --> 00:46:13,170
in various stages of development I'll
953
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:15,340
show this South China Morning Post video
954
00:46:13,170 --> 00:46:17,770
on the social credit system but it's in
955
00:46:15,340 --> 00:46:20,470
to keep in mind that you know there's
956
00:46:17,770 --> 00:46:22,270
rewards as well as punishments rewards
957
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:23,730
for kind of adhering to guidelines for
958
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:27,880
not being the troublemaker that
959
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:30,400
incentivize people to stay away from
960
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:33,720
those sensitive topics so without
961
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,720
further ado I'll just show the video
962
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:40,680
[Music]
963
00:46:36,380 --> 00:46:43,660
[Applause]
964
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:46,060
China says it's social credit system is
965
00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:48,340
designed to allow the trustworthy to
966
00:46:46,060 --> 00:46:50,470
roam everywhere under heaven or making
967
00:46:48,340 --> 00:46:52,870
it hard for the discredited to take a
968
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:54,910
single step critics say this is the
969
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:57,070
government's way of creating a high-tech
970
00:46:54,910 --> 00:46:59,710
dystopia but at least one Chinese
971
00:46:57,070 --> 00:47:04,060
company sees social credit as a business
972
00:46:59,710 --> 00:47:07,480
opportunity you see what you see catchy
973
00:47:04,060 --> 00:47:09,850
chicken korma 40 minutes initiation by a
974
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,670
social engineer so should we say about a
975
00:47:09,850 --> 00:47:15,280
time you know if it's endorsed in site
976
00:47:12,670 --> 00:47:18,070
or he/she immunes company has developed
977
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,140
a social credit app it gives China's
978
00:47:18,070 --> 00:47:22,150
youth a taste of the benefits one can
979
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:24,550
have with a good social credit rating
980
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:26,620
the Beijing startup collaborated with
981
00:47:24,550 --> 00:47:28,990
the Communist Youth League of China to
982
00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:31,300
gather personal data from over 70
983
00:47:28,990 --> 00:47:34,300
million young people the app is called
984
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:36,670
eunuch town it gives each user a score
985
00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:39,130
based on six criteria personal
986
00:47:36,670 --> 00:47:40,780
information volunteer works social
987
00:47:39,130 --> 00:47:43,210
connections for credit history
988
00:47:40,780 --> 00:47:46,410
consumption history and track record of
989
00:47:43,210 --> 00:47:50,440
honoring contracts the lowest score is
990
00:47:46,410 --> 00:47:53,380
350 and the highest is 800 users with
991
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:55,510
high scores above 650 can benefit by
992
00:47:53,380 --> 00:47:57,880
getting discounts on online courses or
993
00:47:55,510 --> 00:48:00,970
even be parachuted directly into the
994
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:02,650
second round of job interviews but China
995
00:48:00,970 --> 00:48:04,090
youth credit management has more
996
00:48:02,650 --> 00:48:06,310
ambitious goals when it comes to
997
00:48:04,090 --> 00:48:07,990
capitalizing on social credit it wants
998
00:48:06,310 --> 00:48:10,330
to build a system to cover all Chinese
999
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:15,900
citizens between the ages of 18 and 45
1000
00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:15,900
an estimated 460 million people
1001
00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:43,280
[Music]
1002
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,640
such apps appear to confirm the fears of
1003
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:54,190
critics who worry the China's social
1004
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,500
credit system undermines an individual's
1005
00:48:54,190 --> 00:49:17,710
right to privacy but she sees it in a
1006
00:48:56,500 --> 00:49:19,360
different way like it or not China is
1007
00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:22,270
pressing ahead to have its social credit
1008
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,430
system rolled out nationwide by 2020 and
1009
00:49:22,270 --> 00:49:25,720
China use credit management wants to be
1010
00:49:24,430 --> 00:49:29,580
at the forefront when it comes to
1011
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:29,580
creating the tech to support it
1012
00:49:37,060 --> 00:49:43,760
so that's just a little bit of an intro
1013
00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:45,890
into the social credit system which is
1014
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,930
similar kind of to credit scores here
1015
00:49:45,890 --> 00:49:51,050
except it would take into account a lot
1016
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:55,090
a much wider variety it's not merely
1017
00:49:51,050 --> 00:49:58,640
financial it could be also have you been
1018
00:49:55,090 --> 00:50:01,100
accused of crime you know have you made
1019
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:04,460
inappropriate speech online that sort of
1020
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:08,990
thing so the last thing I want to touch
1021
00:50:04,460 --> 00:50:11,300
on kind of before we have more of a
1022
00:50:08,990 --> 00:50:14,360
conversation is Shin Jung which is the
1023
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:16,460
province in far western China I just
1024
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,410
wanted to do a side-by-side so this is
1025
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:20,930
from last year in 2019 of the search
1026
00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:25,160
results of YouTube versus yoku the
1027
00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:27,470
Chinese streaming site so if you look
1028
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,680
for instance on the left
1029
00:50:27,470 --> 00:50:33,170
that's yoku search results beautiful
1030
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:37,310
scene down a documentary as the most
1031
00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:40,880
beautiful places in Xinjiang a Shang
1032
00:50:37,310 --> 00:50:45,080
Gong a Hong Kong girl goes to Shin Jang
1033
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,670
and records it and then the other is
1034
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,410
like a driving trip through scene job so
1035
00:50:46,670 --> 00:50:52,280
that's basically all travel documentary
1036
00:50:48,410 --> 00:50:55,490
kind of style videos however the first
1037
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:57,520
couple of hits first four hits for shin
1038
00:50:55,490 --> 00:50:59,390
dong and YouTube one is about
1039
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:02,300
allegations that it's a terrorist
1040
00:50:59,390 --> 00:51:04,220
breeding ground the other is why it
1041
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:06,910
seems unimportant to try not politically
1042
00:51:04,220 --> 00:51:10,520
the other is about the internment camps
1043
00:51:06,910 --> 00:51:13,190
kind of forced labor and religious
1044
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:15,410
persecution and then finally it's you
1045
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:19,790
know a food tour I mean it is YouTube
1046
00:51:15,410 --> 00:51:22,880
after all I updated I did the searches
1047
00:51:19,790 --> 00:51:26,290
again this year so on the Left it's two
1048
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,820
kind of documentaries one is kind of
1049
00:51:26,290 --> 00:51:31,040
personal stories of people in Shinyoung
1050
00:51:28,820 --> 00:51:33,770
the other is cynjohn weighed out so like
1051
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:37,730
Shin Jung taste it's a cooking show I
1052
00:51:33,770 --> 00:51:39,830
imagine and then on the right some of
1053
00:51:37,730 --> 00:51:44,060
these are the same sort of hits a couple
1054
00:51:39,830 --> 00:51:48,640
of them are the same also a vice news
1055
00:51:44,060 --> 00:51:51,650
documentary basically it's a similar
1056
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:55,260
sort of
1057
00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:58,349
disparity or discrepancy kind of two
1058
00:51:55,260 --> 00:51:59,700
different kinds of search results you
1059
00:51:58,349 --> 00:52:02,099
would get depending on whether you were
1060
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:05,359
accessing kind of the PRC domestic sites
1061
00:52:02,099 --> 00:52:08,730
versus sites that are blocked in the PRC
1062
00:52:05,359 --> 00:52:12,619
so with that I guess I'll just that's
1063
00:52:08,730 --> 00:52:12,619
the end of my PowerPoint presentation
1064
00:52:14,660 --> 00:52:20,280
happy to talk about any aspect of it
1065
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:21,809
Thank You Liz that was wonderful
1066
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,880
I really appreciate you sharing your
1067
00:52:21,809 --> 00:52:26,220
thoughts and reflections and your
1068
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,050
wonderful research and in the absence of
1069
00:52:26,220 --> 00:52:30,000
a live audience I thought maybe we could
1070
00:52:28,050 --> 00:52:33,540
have just a one on one short dialogue
1071
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:36,240
and ask a couple follow-up questions I
1072
00:52:33,540 --> 00:52:39,000
guess the big elephant in the room is
1073
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:41,460
right now kovat 19 everyone is at home
1074
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,280
in China and I'm just assuming Internet
1075
00:52:41,460 --> 00:52:48,150
usage all around the world is exploding
1076
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:51,359
how has COBIT 19 impacted the internet
1077
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:53,099
in China how is it impacted you talked a
1078
00:52:51,359 --> 00:52:55,470
lot about government control of the
1079
00:52:53,099 --> 00:52:57,839
Internet have you seen changes taking
1080
00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:59,339
place during this time and I'm just
1081
00:52:57,839 --> 00:53:01,440
curious your reflection over the last
1082
00:52:59,339 --> 00:53:05,400
couple of months what we're seeing on
1083
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:08,549
the ground in China is a VP pandemic so
1084
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:13,380
one of my focuses of my sorry you can
1085
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:15,900
see my cast one of the focuses of my
1086
00:53:13,380 --> 00:53:17,700
research is on forced confessions
1087
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:20,430
televised confessions so I mentioned
1088
00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:24,599
Charles sure I wrote about him a little
1089
00:53:20,430 --> 00:53:29,460
bit in my book since then I've done kind
1090
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:31,109
of research on other confessions that
1091
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:35,030
have been broadcast on national or
1092
00:53:31,109 --> 00:53:39,150
state-run media um a lot of them are
1093
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:42,750
rights lawyers are or activists actually
1094
00:53:39,150 --> 00:53:45,960
this did happen during the pandemic
1095
00:53:42,750 --> 00:53:48,720
there were several people who were whose
1096
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:51,390
confessions were kind of broadcast on
1097
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:53,880
Weibo they said they had been spreading
1098
00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:54,599
rumors you know they regret it they
1099
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,569
won't do it again
1100
00:53:54,599 --> 00:54:01,369
so this as a tactic for a kind of
1101
00:53:57,569 --> 00:54:04,230
controlling speech has continued to be
1102
00:54:01,369 --> 00:54:06,630
kind of a force at play
1103
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:08,970
there's also the doctor the William who
1104
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:12,300
famously kind of spoke out several
1105
00:54:08,970 --> 00:54:15,140
doctors actually spoke out about kind of
1106
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:20,010
initial information that was um
1107
00:54:15,140 --> 00:54:23,130
suppressed for a while and you know Lila
1108
00:54:20,010 --> 00:54:25,320
now in particular was forced to say you
1109
00:54:23,130 --> 00:54:30,050
know I will do it again
1110
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:32,369
you know I messed up and in retrospect
1111
00:54:30,050 --> 00:54:34,410
many people said you know if I had known
1112
00:54:32,369 --> 00:54:38,750
at the time how bad it was going to be I
1113
00:54:34,410 --> 00:54:40,980
would have told everyone - said this
1114
00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:44,329
however you know I think there was a
1115
00:54:40,980 --> 00:54:47,520
period where there was a lot of
1116
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:52,260
dissatisfaction with the initial
1117
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:55,140
censorship efforts with you know not not
1118
00:54:52,260 --> 00:54:58,530
stopping things sooner in behind like
1119
00:54:55,140 --> 00:55:01,829
public gatherings not reporting on human
1120
00:54:58,530 --> 00:55:04,560
to human transmission and for a time
1121
00:55:01,829 --> 00:55:08,190
that was kind of a very I would say of
1122
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:12,300
not unified but a shared public cinnamon
1123
00:55:08,190 --> 00:55:15,480
however and I'm sure you've also
1124
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:18,450
experienced this there's now it's been
1125
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,430
more of a backlash against people who
1126
00:55:18,450 --> 00:55:22,680
were accused of politicizing it of
1127
00:55:20,430 --> 00:55:27,300
making it about you know just saying bad
1128
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:30,569
things about China so you know I think
1129
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:33,359
everyone's in agreement that the initial
1130
00:55:30,569 --> 00:55:36,900
censorship was wrong in lives more lives
1131
00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:40,640
could have been saved but in terms of
1132
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:43,280
like anti censorship sentiment I
1133
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:45,930
wouldn't say it's been replaced by
1134
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,940
nationalism but certainly been tempered
1135
00:55:45,930 --> 00:55:52,020
by it I don't know if you have thoughts
1136
00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:54,510
on that as well I know I've certainly
1137
00:55:52,020 --> 00:55:57,690
seen that the similar dynamic taking
1138
00:55:54,510 --> 00:55:59,339
place that initially I think after the
1139
00:55:57,690 --> 00:56:01,380
death of Lee wen Liang there seemed to
1140
00:55:59,339 --> 00:56:04,140
be a liberalisation short-term and they
1141
00:56:01,380 --> 00:56:06,480
allowed some more critical voices and
1142
00:56:04,140 --> 00:56:09,210
they actually had a reappraisal of
1143
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,520
leuwen lands place in the whole timeline
1144
00:56:09,210 --> 00:56:14,940
of the pandemic and his contributions
1145
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:17,790
however as things have started to return
1146
00:56:14,940 --> 00:56:20,340
to normal in China there's also been
1147
00:56:17,790 --> 00:56:22,500
an incredible rise in nationalist
1148
00:56:20,340 --> 00:56:24,300
sentiment and with that rise in
1149
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:26,700
nationalist sentiment I've also seen a
1150
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:29,580
kind of real strong armed crackdown on
1151
00:56:26,700 --> 00:56:34,050
any voices of dissent or those who
1152
00:56:29,580 --> 00:56:35,940
called for a more thorough investigation
1153
00:56:34,050 --> 00:56:38,220
into what had happened
1154
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:40,020
it's basically turned into a kind of
1155
00:56:38,220 --> 00:56:41,340
you're with us or against this type of
1156
00:56:40,020 --> 00:56:43,950
narrative at least that's what I'm
1157
00:56:41,340 --> 00:56:47,940
seeing and I think kind of the racism
1158
00:56:43,950 --> 00:56:50,640
that that came about after the pandemic
1159
00:56:47,940 --> 00:56:55,410
went global fueled that as well kind of
1160
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:59,910
there was a sentiment of you know it
1161
00:56:55,410 --> 00:57:02,970
really strengthened us versus them kind
1162
00:56:59,910 --> 00:57:05,850
of feeling because you know people were
1163
00:57:02,970 --> 00:57:08,460
being attacked on the street and you
1164
00:57:05,850 --> 00:57:11,550
know there were people saying things
1165
00:57:08,460 --> 00:57:13,980
about China broadly not about like the
1166
00:57:11,550 --> 00:57:16,140
government or the censorship policies so
1167
00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:18,240
it made I I can imagine and made a lot
1168
00:57:16,140 --> 00:57:22,590
of people think well if that's if it's
1169
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:25,470
that or you know my own national
1170
00:57:22,590 --> 00:57:29,160
identity you know I guess I know which
1171
00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:34,440
side to pick and Trump obviously didn't
1172
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:36,480
help I want to backtrack a little bit
1173
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,670
into the earlier portion of your lecture
1174
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,040
where you gave this overview of all of
1175
00:57:38,670 --> 00:57:43,770
the restrictions and the ways in which
1176
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:48,300
the this control mechanism of censorship
1177
00:57:43,770 --> 00:57:50,280
works but increasingly so of course
1178
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:52,710
that's a huge part of the overall
1179
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,360
picture or idea that this local Chinese
1180
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:57,000
internet all of these apps all of these
1181
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:59,340
companies are developed so that they can
1182
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,260
build in this level of censorship that
1183
00:57:59,340 --> 00:58:05,190
we don't have and say Facebook and
1184
00:58:01,260 --> 00:58:06,570
Western alternatives but the other side
1185
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:08,160
you mentioned it a little bit but I
1186
00:58:06,570 --> 00:58:09,630
think it's such an important topic I'd
1187
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,300
love to hear you say a little bit more
1188
00:58:09,630 --> 00:58:14,460
and that's the economic ramifications
1189
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:16,770
that is if you remove Facebook and
1190
00:58:14,460 --> 00:58:19,530
Twitter and YouTube and all of these
1191
00:58:16,770 --> 00:58:22,860
corporate giants you create a space for
1192
00:58:19,530 --> 00:58:26,400
these local Chinese startups to explode
1193
00:58:22,860 --> 00:58:27,810
into a massive multi-billion dollar
1194
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:31,130
companies and that's what they've all
1195
00:58:27,810 --> 00:58:32,810
done and so although Center
1196
00:58:31,130 --> 00:58:34,970
may have been the original impetus to
1197
00:58:32,810 --> 00:58:37,070
what extent do you think the economic
1198
00:58:34,970 --> 00:58:40,730
almost the kind of market protectionism
1199
00:58:37,070 --> 00:58:43,090
went into creating that system so that
1200
00:58:40,730 --> 00:58:45,590
these companies could really expand
1201
00:58:43,090 --> 00:58:48,230
unfettered and unchallenged by Western
1202
00:58:45,590 --> 00:58:50,360
competitors I think you're right I don't
1203
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:52,880
know exactly what the balance is of you
1204
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:54,710
know was done to enhance censorship it
1205
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,980
was done to promote domestic innovation
1206
00:58:54,710 --> 00:59:01,340
it's certainly done both and I think the
1207
00:58:57,980 --> 00:59:03,440
more successful these kind of PRC
1208
00:59:01,340 --> 00:59:07,280
companies become in the domestic market
1209
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:09,560
the more also they are the government
1210
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,240
has more leverage to make sure they
1211
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,490
enforce censorship mechanisms so for
1212
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:16,550
instance we shad is wildly successful
1213
00:59:13,490 --> 00:59:18,340
it's like such a huge Tinson its parent
1214
00:59:16,550 --> 00:59:21,740
company is like so huge
1215
00:59:18,340 --> 00:59:25,580
just like hand over fist money all the
1216
00:59:21,740 --> 00:59:27,560
time and it has such a monopoly on the
1217
00:59:25,580 --> 00:59:29,810
domestic market however without the
1218
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,250
domestic market it's nothing I mean
1219
00:59:29,810 --> 00:59:34,700
certainly Tencent has some business
1220
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:37,070
that's outside of the PRC and there are
1221
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:41,090
users outside of the PRC you can use
1222
00:59:37,070 --> 00:59:42,650
WeChat but if the government said for
1223
00:59:41,090 --> 00:59:44,120
instance you know we're shutting down
1224
00:59:42,650 --> 00:59:47,360
your domestic operations that would be
1225
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:49,490
it for the company which I think gives
1226
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,070
them a lot more leverage to say enforce
1227
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:55,180
these censorship mechanisms then say a
1228
00:59:52,070 --> 00:59:57,470
company that has a diversified let's say
1229
00:59:55,180 --> 01:00:01,780
20% of their users are in the PRC and
1230
00:59:57,470 --> 01:00:04,880
20% are in India and so on and so forth
1231
01:00:01,780 --> 01:00:08,660
they would just be able to either take
1232
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,830
the loss or bargain about it but the
1233
01:00:08,660 --> 01:00:14,870
fact that these companies are so
1234
01:00:09,830 --> 01:00:17,570
successful mainly only in within the PRC
1235
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:20,720
means they are also much more beholden
1236
01:00:17,570 --> 01:00:24,170
or much more kind of at risk from any
1237
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,820
kind of changing government policy but a
1238
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:28,220
lot of these companies have become super
1239
01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:30,530
successful like tic toc I mean I don't
1240
01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:32,060
use it obviously and I'm old but it
1241
01:00:30,530 --> 01:00:35,360
appears to be very popular among the
1242
01:00:32,060 --> 01:00:37,850
youths so you know that's originally a
1243
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:42,220
Chinese company Chinese PRC companies
1244
01:00:37,850 --> 01:00:44,780
are also buying kind of other companies
1245
01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:48,440
to expand their business
1246
01:00:44,780 --> 01:00:50,240
portfolio um it has actually it has
1247
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,760
promoted a lot of domestic innovation
1248
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:56,240
although I also will say that kind of
1249
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:58,220
the very lacks intellectual copyright
1250
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:00,290
protections within the PRC have made it
1251
01:00:58,220 --> 01:01:02,660
difficult for smaller companies to
1252
01:01:00,290 --> 01:01:04,610
challenge giants like me chat for
1253
01:01:02,660 --> 01:01:06,080
instance we chats audio messaging
1254
01:01:04,610 --> 01:01:10,040
function is totally ripped off of
1255
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:11,720
another company but there's not really a
1256
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,820
whole lot of recourse in a system where
1257
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,770
you know they already have so much power
1258
01:01:13,820 --> 01:01:17,210
although I mean that's something that
1259
01:01:15,770 --> 01:01:19,910
Facebook and Google everybody does to
1260
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:22,240
like buy up their competitors before
1261
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:25,010
they get to be too bigger that's right
1262
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:27,080
one of the videos you showed kind of
1263
01:01:25,010 --> 01:01:29,090
give a profile of how we chat is this
1264
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,430
Swiss Army knife right it does it all
1265
01:01:29,090 --> 01:01:33,440
and although some of these companies
1266
01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:35,990
began as so-called copycats
1267
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:38,990
they've innovated in such a way that now
1268
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:41,180
it's come full circle and I'm wondering
1269
01:01:38,990 --> 01:01:44,270
if we complete the circle in what ways
1270
01:01:41,180 --> 01:01:46,580
are you seeing the big American or
1271
01:01:44,270 --> 01:01:48,500
European social media companies whether
1272
01:01:46,580 --> 01:01:50,900
it be Twitter or Facebook are they
1273
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:52,850
starting to change the way they function
1274
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:55,750
because I just went out there for a
1275
01:01:52,850 --> 01:01:55,750
minute oh sure
1276
01:02:04,450 --> 01:02:08,890
professor berry yes can you hear me
1277
01:02:10,450 --> 01:02:15,980
sorry you just went out there I good you
1278
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:19,160
were here Whitney froze I think we're
1279
01:02:15,980 --> 01:02:22,420
back yes so you were saying comes full
1280
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:24,560
circle yeah and are we are we seeing
1281
01:02:22,420 --> 01:02:27,050
companies like Twitter or Facebook
1282
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:29,180
starting to incorporate some of the
1283
01:02:27,050 --> 01:02:30,440
innovations made from WeChat or other
1284
01:02:29,180 --> 01:02:32,839
Chinese companies into their own
1285
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,990
platforms are we seeing that circle kind
1286
01:02:32,839 --> 01:02:38,690
of being completed now I would say you
1287
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:40,190
know I Instagram and Facebook in
1288
01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:42,349
particular I think you've taken a page
1289
01:02:40,190 --> 01:02:44,589
out of Li chats book for some of their
1290
01:02:42,349 --> 01:02:46,880
features um
1291
01:02:44,589 --> 01:02:48,500
Facebook is trying to like make in
1292
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,240
itself an all-in-one and in some
1293
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:53,420
countries it's already kind of like the
1294
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:55,040
all-in-one uh internet you know people
1295
01:02:53,420 --> 01:02:56,359
access the internet through Facebook you
1296
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:59,210
can be on Facebook looking the
1297
01:02:56,359 --> 01:03:01,190
marketplace and like groups and your
1298
01:02:59,210 --> 01:03:04,849
timeline I would not say it's as
1299
01:03:01,190 --> 01:03:08,089
successful as we chatted as doing that
1300
01:03:04,849 --> 01:03:13,790
thing and part of that is because you
1301
01:03:08,089 --> 01:03:15,470
know it would never be able to well I
1302
01:03:13,790 --> 01:03:16,820
never say never but I don't think it
1303
01:03:15,470 --> 01:03:18,500
would be able to achieve that kind of a
1304
01:03:16,820 --> 01:03:21,740
monopoly on all different kinds of
1305
01:03:18,500 --> 01:03:24,170
services but if you think about it you
1306
01:03:21,740 --> 01:03:26,830
use messenger which is Facebook's
1307
01:03:24,170 --> 01:03:30,470
messenger Instagram which Facebook owns
1308
01:03:26,830 --> 01:03:32,570
Facebook there's several kind of things
1309
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:34,130
if it continues to acquire and there's
1310
01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:36,080
no antitrust legislation it can
1311
01:03:34,130 --> 01:03:38,119
potentially become that way but I will
1312
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:41,000
say we chad is very advanced in ways and
1313
01:03:38,119 --> 01:03:42,950
localized in ways that you know the big
1314
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:46,310
kind of social media giants here aren't
1315
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:51,230
just in terms of things like you know
1316
01:03:46,310 --> 01:03:54,140
transcription software the different
1317
01:03:51,230 --> 01:03:57,619
in-app purchase features kind of mobile
1318
01:03:54,140 --> 01:04:00,440
payment is very strongly incorporated in
1319
01:03:57,619 --> 01:04:03,530
a frictionless way so like last time I
1320
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:05,270
was in Beijing a year or two ago you
1321
01:04:03,530 --> 01:04:08,480
know I used it to pay every time I went
1322
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:10,580
out to a restaurant and you know got
1323
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,170
something from a vending machine so
1324
01:04:10,580 --> 01:04:14,900
we're working towards contactless
1325
01:04:12,170 --> 01:04:17,599
payment in the US but it's by no means
1326
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:19,990
as advanced you know as it is with
1327
01:04:17,599 --> 01:04:19,990
WeChat
1328
01:04:20,780 --> 01:04:24,320
I think I will not take any more of your
1329
01:04:22,340 --> 01:04:25,880
time but I wanted again thank you on
1330
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,310
behalf of the Center for Chinese Studies
1331
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:30,170
and are also our course Chinese 40 pop
1332
01:04:28,310 --> 01:04:33,320
culture in modern China where this will
1333
01:04:30,170 --> 01:04:35,690
be running and thank you again for all
1334
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:40,490
your time and your insights we
1335
01:04:35,690 --> 01:04:42,820
appreciate you for the opportunity Thank
1336
01:04:40,490 --> 01:04:42,820
You Liz